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Old 11-26-2011, 03:04 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Tire / alignment problem (pics of tires)

I was swapping my summer out for my winter tires today and noticed that the rear tires on my car were wearing on the inside pretty bad. The tires were new this spring (Yokohama Avid ENVigor). Car is lowered 0.75" in the rear and was last aligned at Frisby tire about 4 year ago.

It seems that every second tread block on the inside was scrubbed or wearing less than the one next to it. I thought the noisiness from the rear of the car was the wheel bearings going bad but this would definitely explain it.

Pics:

Kinda shows it:


Definitely shows it:


Every second tread block (lower portion of the tire in this pic):


The left and right tires were both like this on the rear.
What causes this? My original tires were fine for 3.5 years and never showed this wear. These new ones seem nearly ruined(???) in one season and the treadwear is supposed to be twice as long as the old ones!! WTF!!

Would an alignment fix this?

Thanks.
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Old 11-27-2011, 11:20 PM   #2 (permalink)
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That's feathering of the tires. I had that on my old tires too and it was caused by my toe angle being very off. You should probably get an alignment more often than every 4 years.
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Old 11-28-2011, 01:28 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willy18 View Post
That's feathering of the tires. I had that on my old tires too and it was caused by my toe angle being very off. You should probably get an alignment more often than every 4 years.
yea, that. i've also heard it referred to as 'cupping' iirc. happened on a set of tires to me as well and it was the toe.
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Old 11-28-2011, 10:01 AM   #4 (permalink)
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So are the two rear tires garbage now? Even in the worst cupped/feathered/scalloped areas there is still significant tread left, it's just noisy.
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Old 11-28-2011, 10:32 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Curls, nothing unusual there. A lowered TSX with no camber kit in the rear.
Rotating the tires front to rear would have helped. You gotta keep an eye on tire wear!

I would recommend a rear camber kit & an alignment.
It's hard to tell how badly worn those rear tires really are. You might be able to run them on the front for a summer.
You might be able to buy 2 new ones to replace the 2 worn rear ones if the front 2 tires are still fine.
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Old 11-28-2011, 11:03 AM   #6 (permalink)
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I've read the Heeltoe guide, as well as spoken with a very good alignment technician a few years back (4 years ago). Both Heeltoe and the tech say that camber doesn't kill tires, it's toe that does. That is also proven in that my last set of summer tires (General Exclaim UHP) lasted 4 seasons with no apparent uneven wear at all. The alignment must have been good enough to last 4 years. It's my fault I didn't get an alignment this spring when I got the new tires. But to say a camber kit is necessary isn't the whole truth -- a proper toe alignment seems to be the logical and proven way to handle this rather than the camber adjustment itself.
I'll report back with my before/after alignment specs tonight!
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Old 11-28-2011, 07:18 PM   #7 (permalink)
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So the rear toe was out a bit, and the front right tow was out a fair amount as well. Rear camber is -2.3* and -2.4*... yikes! I've ordered a camber kit and will be going back once that's installed. Front camber was negative as well... WTF!

The guy was great though... walked me through the settings, etc... and said "I'll adjust it for you free of charge but please come back with the camber kit and actually pay for an alignment and we'll get you straightened right out in no time!"
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Old 11-28-2011, 07:32 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curls View Post
So the rear toe was out a bit, and the front right tow was out a fair amount as well. Rear camber is -2.3* and -2.4*... yikes! I've ordered a camber kit and will be going back once that's installed. Front camber was negative as well... WTF!

The guy was great though... walked me through the settings, etc... and said "I'll adjust it for you free of charge but please come back with the camber kit and actually pay for an alignment and we'll get you straightened right out in no time!"

I think someone recommended a rear camber kit in this thread!

Just kidding, but a stock ride height TSX has rear camber by design to prevent oversteer. IMO, any lowering at all increases rear camber even further & requires a camber kit to correct.

Camber definitely wears tires. Especially wider, lower profile, "squared off" performance tires. I can see this in comparing my performance summer tires to my narrow, low performance winter tires.

What was your front camber specs? I would aim for about -0.5 to -1.0 camber on the front.

For the rear, if you carry a bunch of stuff around all the time, golf clubs in the summer, always with a family in the car, always loaded down with camping, biking, or ski gear, I would aim for -0.5 in the rear empty. This will put you about -1.0 to -1.5 loaded down.

If you are running solo & empty in the car all the time, I would aim for -1.0 max.


Just my thoughts... Joe
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Old 11-29-2011, 10:32 AM   #9 (permalink)
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I don't have the printout in front of me but let's ignore it and focus on the upcoming alignment next week where I can get it dialed right in the way I'd like it the best.

Being in Canada, oversteer can be really bad on slippery roads, and with a rear sway bar, this is even more prominent. That being said, I prefer to drive in a spirited manner and like crisp turn-in and also love a very solid, planted sweeping on/off ramp.
Tire longevity is a factor so I don't want too much toe, but enough to make it 'fun', if that's a factor in the fun department.

I do tend to drive long distances in the summer with a large tackle bag for bass fishing in my trunk - probably weighs about 50lbs (and include a lunch and 6 500ml bottles of water in there too LOL). Occasionally golf clubs or luggage but not often. Usually just me in the car, but can have 4 adults (myself included) a few times, on occasion, throughout the year.

What should I get for good 'performance' specs but retaining some tire longevity and some safety for winter?

Front camber:
Front Toe:
Rear camber:
Rear Toe:

???
Thanks,
Eric
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Old 11-29-2011, 11:43 AM   #10 (permalink)
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So your car is only lowered 0.75" front & rear & you're are mainly running around empty. What size summer tires are you running?

Are the front tires worn fairly evenly? If yes, then you don't need a front camber kit, even though the front is in negative camber right now.
IMO, -1.0 degree camber for the front is about max for even front tire wear.

For the rear, the TSX stock rear spec is approx -1.0 to -2.0.
I would set the rear to -1.0 with the rear camber kit. This is a good compromise for handling & tire wear.
The stock Toe specs are fine for both the front & rear.


Do you have an aftermarket rear sway bar?
Even with my 22mm Progress RSB (in the soft setting) oversteer is not an issue with our TSX.
But the RSB makes a noticeable handling difference.
Summer/winter, wet/dry, snow/ice, summer or winter tires, it's still difficult for the rear end to come around.
Our car still has the stock suspension & ride height. Stock alignment specs, no rear camber kit.
The car is totally safe in all circumstances.
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CT short shifter. Hondata reflash. RSX-S underdrive crank pulley. M3 lip, debadged.
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Old 11-29-2011, 12:47 PM   #11 (permalink)
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1.1" front, 0.75" rear (specs for the Tein H-Tech springs), on Tokico blues shocks.

225/45-17 Yokohama Avid ENVigor tires.

Front tires show a bit of over-inflation wear but nothing to be concerned with. I prefer to have it slightly over-inflated for a stiffer tire characteristic.

22mm Comptech RSB with polyurethane bushings.

So, would -1.0 degree of rear camber give a more planted or less planted rear end? What about with regards to steering responsiveness - more or less camber from say -1.5*?



Quote:
Originally Posted by CalgaryTSX View Post
So your car is only lowered 0.75" front & rear & you're are mainly running around empty. What size summer tires are you running?

Are the front tires worn fairly evenly? If yes, then you don't need a front camber kit, even though the front is in negative camber right now.
IMO, -1.0 degree camber for the front is about max for even front tire wear.

For the rear, the TSX stock rear spec is approx -1.0 to -2.0.
I would set the rear to -1.0 with the rear camber kit. This is a good compromise for handling & tire wear.
The stock Toe specs are fine for both the front & rear.


Do you have an aftermarket rear sway bar?
Even with my 22mm Progress RSB (in the soft setting) oversteer is not an issue with our TSX.
But the RSB makes a noticeable handling difference.
Summer/winter, wet/dry, snow/ice, summer or winter tires, it's still difficult for the rear end to come around.
Our car still has the stock suspension & ride height. Stock alignment specs, no rear camber kit.
The car is totally safe in all circumstances.
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Old 11-29-2011, 01:08 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Since your front tire wear is fine, I would just set the front toe to spec & that will be fine.
Front camber is not adjustable on the stock TSX. Make sure to note the front camber specs to confirm they are not too negative.

-1.0 will be just fine for the rear. A good compromise between handling & tire wear. The stock TSX rear alignment spec is approx -1.0 to -2.0, so -1.0 with wider more aggressive tires & a RSB will be just fine.


Like everything, alignment for the street & for the track are at odds & you have to compromise.
Lots of negative camber & toe out is great for cornering but really hard on the tires.
Too much negative camber reduces the tire contact patch for braking & traction plus the car will lose straightline stability & it will want to follow pavement grooves more.
Too much toe out makes the car really darty. Both hands on the steering wheel around town at all times as the car will really want to turn quickly.

For those guys that are all about show with huge camber, those cars handle worse than stock since they are running on the inside of their tires.
Huge negative camber on the rear means very little braking is being done by the rear tires.
Huge negative camber on the front means those guys are spinning the tires easily at launch plus reducing their car's braking capability.


Ideally you need street alignment settings & then track aligment settings, plus then street wheels/tires & track wheels/tires.
Which is exactly what many guys do.
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CT short shifter. Hondata reflash. RSX-S underdrive crank pulley. M3 lip, debadged.
DIY CAI/K&N filter. DIY exhaust (2nd resonator removed). Progress 22mm RSB.
Summer: 17x7.5, ET50mm Sport Edition's. 225/50ZR17 BFG Super Sport A/S.
Winter: 16x6.5, ET45mm OEM RSX. 195/65R16 Nokian winter radials.
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Old 11-29-2011, 03:29 PM   #13 (permalink)
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That's a perfect response!! +rep!

I will have him dial it to -1.0* in the rear camber and set toe to 0.00* if possible. What you said about lots of rear negative camber making the car lose straight-line stability and follow pavement grooves -- SO TRUE. I can't wait to get rid of that trait!!! Although, it keeps my wife away from driving my car since she can't stand that my car tracks pavement grooves LOL!
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Old 12-07-2011, 03:08 PM   #14 (permalink)
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OK, so I'll be picking up the car (3rd time) from the alignment shop in a few minutes. Here's what happened:
- Went for alignment, told to come back w/ camber kit (as mentioned above).
- I installed the camber kit as per directions (equal threads on each side of the adjustment area).
- Went back for alignment, was told they couldn't adjust camber because the inner nut wasn't accessible (bad design of brace for the bushing of the upper control arm/camber kit).
- I uninstalled the camber kits (both sides), adjusted the adjustment area to be more "outward" so both inner and outer nuts were accessible.
- --EDIT-- Went back for alignment AGAIN today, and for camber they got one side to -0.4* and the other was -1.0*. I had asked for -0.9* (from the previous reading of -2.4* or so). The most they could bring the one side in was to -0.4*. Technically it's out of spec by 0.1* but this was as good as they could get it with the camber kit not being installed "centered" due to clearance issues on the jam nut. What are everyone's thoughts on this?

Other notes: Front toe is 0.00* on left, -0.10* on right. Rear toe is +0.05* on left and +0.10* on right. So I guess my car looks like this (from top, front at top):
| \
\ /

Opinions? To me, it seemed to drive well and track dead straight. Cornering wasn't tested hard due to winter tires and a crappy drive home LOL.
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Old 12-15-2011, 10:00 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Hey Curls,

Did you finally get the rear wheel alignment correct? I hope you didn't leave it at -0.9 & -0.4 degrees camber on the rear wheels.

I am surprised that the shop couldn't take apart the camber arms & play with the adjusting nuts to get it right instead of you going back & forth.

What were your front camber results?
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2006 PWP TSX, 6MT. Wifey's daily driver.

CT short shifter. Hondata reflash. RSX-S underdrive crank pulley. M3 lip, debadged.
DIY CAI/K&N filter. DIY exhaust (2nd resonator removed). Progress 22mm RSB.
Summer: 17x7.5, ET50mm Sport Edition's. 225/50ZR17 BFG Super Sport A/S.
Winter: 16x6.5, ET45mm OEM RSX. 195/65R16 Nokian winter radials.
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