What, indeed, should we "expect" on an internet site? [Archive]

larchmont

02-05-2004, 05:06 PM

People on "that other site" sometimes asked, what do I "expect" anyway? Well, maybe I don't know what can be expected. I had problems about this on both prior TSX sites that I was on. The history is strange. On the first site, just about everybody seemed to agree with me about how the admins were handling things (I didn't expect that), and they got banned too or else just left, and the site basically was put to sleep -- which was how site #2 came about. Over there, everything seemed great -- for the first few weeks. And then, much the same things started all over again on site #2 (which is still very alive-and-well, although less hopping -- don't know if anybody suspects the connection). :D

So I have to wonder about what I expect and whether it's reasonable. Despite my thousands of posts, I'm really very new to the internet, not to mention being of a different age than most others. So I really don't know. :confused:

Well, here's what I would say: Besides the obvious things like that the site should be well-designed, it should "work" well, the members should be good and interesting, etc., here's what I think should be expected:

(1) It should be OK to raise questions about the handling of the site, and to have reasonable discussions about it, even if the discussions involve some criticism of admins or mods.

(2) When admins/mods make major changes or deletions in the site, the membership should be advised about it, preferably before the fact but at least after the fact.

(3) Things that are promised or announced should be followed through, or if they can't be, the membership should be advised about it. (And if the members aren't advised about it and therefore ask questions, they should gladly be given appropriate answers.)

(4) Admins/mods should show a certain level of maturity and respect, including that they should virtually never (if ever) insult or abuse members. (And if they must, they should make sure to be accurate in what they say.)

(5) If they must flame a member, they should give him a fair chance to reply.

Within those parameters, I think just about anything else is fine. They can close threads, they can tell people to shape up, they can ban people, as long as things are done forthrightly and with a certain basic respect.

So that's where I'm coming from -- but not necessarily where I'll wind up. I'm really looking to learn. Yes, of course, partly I wish to get affirmation that my expectations are reasonable. But much more so, I'm interested to get perspective and to learn. This is a new medium for me :newbie: and I don't know. Maybe people like me don't belong on internet sites.

So, what do y'all think?

I hope people from "that other site" might also express their views, because after all it was over there that these issues got crystallized, and surely you don't expect to be having any opportunity to discuss things like this over there. :D

BTW this site so far scores 100% on all of the above criteria. Not that I'm keeping score. yyyyy11

larchmont

02-06-2004, 11:30 PM

Soooooo....... I guess this means everybody agrees with my criteria. :D

BTW I assume also that it's reasonable to expect that the admin won't offer to give out your password. :rolleyes:

johnej

02-07-2004, 12:19 AM

It depends what do you mean by age???:jump: javascript:smilie(':jump:')

Ray

02-07-2004, 12:52 AM

Originally posted by larchmont
Soooooo....... I guess this means everybody agrees with my criteria. :D

BTW I assume also that it's reasonable to expect that the admin won't offer to give out your password. :rolleyes:

vbulletin masks all passwords so we cannot see them. :D

larchmont

02-07-2004, 12:56 AM

Originally posted by tsxclub
vbulletin masks all passwords so we cannot see them. :D
That's what I would have thought.

And that's one reason I was surprised that Soopa, on "that other site," offered/threatened to give out my password.

(But mainly I was shocked that even he would cross a line like that.
Forget about any possible legalities -- just in terms of any reasonable internet ethic, it would seem he's skating on very thin ice.)

provench

02-08-2004, 11:04 AM

larch ... he clearly would not give out your password ... he nor any admin can not do that. BUT ... what he could do is reset your password and give it to anyone who wants to see that your ID can post on a-tsx.com.

In either case ... this is 95% drama and I don't know where this is going to end up and to be honest Larch at this point I am starting to fall to the "I don't care". You are a valued member of our site and the TSX community and if you would focus on member discussions and not worrying about how soopa who is the paying owner (and active, remember our problems at the "dark side") then it is likely best to focus your questions personally to ME (PM, email, whatever).

I think you and I will have zero personality conflicts and as you know I am more than able to address any of your true concerns. What has to happen is getting in to word exchanges with the guy paying the bills on the site (any Internet site) that you like to use.

So consider this an offer to mediate your concerns ... I am speaking on a personal level and not as a "representative of the a-tsx.com staff) ... although helping address your needs I will probably have to do some things that require that additional authority :D

Over and out ...

larchmont

02-08-2004, 01:50 PM

Thanks Provench.

Sure, you could argue that this is drama, because the result has been dramatic. But all I'm doing at this point is......

A lot of b***s***(i.e. falsehoods) and completely irresponsible admin behavior at my expense has gone on over there, and I'm just responding to it in an attempt to help set things straight. If that stuff will be stopped, the "war" will be over. I mean, people over there will still bring all of this up from time to time, things like "where's Larchmont" and the issues raised in the first post on this thread (which I see y'all having a nice discussion about). But the "war," at least from my standpoint, will be over.

I don't know what kind of mediation would be possible at this point. The site owner has made it more and more clear that he thinks it's OK to treat members (including me in particular) in a way that I cannot accept -- he has behaved on the site in a way that nobody except one infamous banned person (Flooz) has ever behaved on the site; in fact, the tone and vocabulary are remarkably alike. Unless he has a personality transplant or something, I don't want to be there, so I don't see what there is to mediate.

You and some others repeatedly bring up the fact of Soopa "paying the bills" as a key issue here. I believe it's a total smokescreen -- for one thing, because even if I offered to help pay the bills (which in essence I did a few times, if you recall), it wouldn't make any difference. And as it's being pointed out on your site, the law doesn't necessarily recognize any difference -- not that this will ever come to court, of course, but it's just that the law is intended to reflect the expectations and standards of the society, and in this instance I think it does.

Thanks for coming on and offering help. And BTW I offered to give some help to your site in defusing this situation. In case this post of yours may be in part a response to that -- :dunno: -- I'll just say that y'all are already accomplishing a lot of what needs to be done just by allowing a freer discussion, even if not totally free because people's posts have been deleted and edited internally (presumably by the owner) without even any indication of it. To the extent anything additional needs to be done, just eliminate the BS coming from the admins and mods (most of which I'm sure is just due to their being misinformed), because then there will be nothing to comment on from here. BTW I'm not at all talking in general about the fact of people expressing valid views against my views and actions, and even against me personally (e.g. Crazytree) -- that's perfectly fine. But the admins and mods need to cut the BS and the inappropriate flaming.

Remember that I do not wish to become involved in PM or e-mailing about the site, firstly because of the general reasons that I explained several times and more particularly because of the severe abuses and insults that Soopa laid on me when we did it briefly, stuff that was far worse even than the pretty severe stuff he has done on the site in the last few days. If you want to call me oversensitive for minding stuff like that, I plead guilty.

But anything you want to do on here, I'm game.

larchmont

02-08-2004, 02:09 PM

Probably I should explain about that reference in the above post to the "law" stuff.

On the other site, people are discussing the issue of how much say and how much regard the members of a site are entitled to get, sort of like the questions that I raised up there in the first post. And some interesting court decisions are being mentioned, nothing yet about internet sites but things that do seem analogous. And the court finding appears to be that at least in some respects, it doesn't matter if we're paying or not.

larchmont

02-09-2004, 02:23 AM

Originally posted by provench
......he clearly would not give out your password ... he nor any admin can not do that. BUT ... what he could do is reset your password and give it to anyone who wants to see that your ID can post on a-tsx.com....
Provench, what he said was that he would give out my password.

Anyway, you're saying that what he would have done, and maybe DID do, was to CHANGE THE SETTINGS AND THEN LET PEOPLE LOG IN AS ME????

You think that would demonstrate anything about my actual ongoing status before he changed those settings???
Unless I'm missing something, that doesn't compute too well.

hondafreak4eva

02-09-2004, 11:33 AM

wow can we get over the "other site" anytime soon? it's gotten pretty old opening every thread and seeing it be about the other site...

may its just me...

larchmont

02-09-2004, 01:51 PM

I know what you mean. But I hope people might regard the issues in the first post as interesting and relevant. And the way I got to wonder about the issues was from problems on other sites. I'm relatively new to the net, and I'm just learning about how it is. But I'm also coming to think that it's not just that I'm learning, it's that the whole system is still finding its way. I think it's astonishing that admins/mods on some sites believe that suppression and abusiveness will work in the long run, and I think it's astonishing that many members so far have been willing to take it in stride, on the theory that it's free so we'll just take it. I think it's likely that pretty soon things will evolve in a different direction, and in fact I think that discussions like this will help that happen. But meanwhile I think it will be interesting if others express their opinions and expectations.

Also, as I mentioned in reply to one of your other posts, I thought you might feel this whole thing is useful for bringing more people over here.

dnb

02-09-2004, 04:59 PM

Hello, C '71.

Originally posted by larchmont
...I'm relatively new to the net, and I'm just learning about how it is. But I'm also coming to think that it's not just that I'm learning, it's that the whole system is still finding its way. I think it's astonishing that admins/mods on some sites believe that suppression and abusiveness will work in the long run, and I think it's astonishing that many members so far have been willing to take it in stride, on the theory that it's free so we'll just take it.
There's an amazing degree of diversity on the net. Once can find active, thriving sites that practice various degrees of suppression and abusiveness. There even exist newsgroups solely dedicated to flame wars. Different people have different tolerance levels for these types of interactions.

It's no different in the non-net world. A member of the Kung San society (Kalahari Desert) would be shocked by the child-rearing practices of the Western world, and vice versa. Likewise, someone used to British culture might not be comfortable with the interactions in Italian or Hispanic communities.

It all boils down to the level of comfort we have with people and cultures. For internet communities there's really only one thing to do, IMHO: if you don't have any power over the community, vote with your feet.

I think it's likely that pretty soon things will evolve in a different direction, and in fact I think that discussions like this will help that happen.
Online communities have been evolving for quite some time now. Newsgroups have existed since the late 70s or early 80s, I think. Web boards/forums have been around since the early 90s.

dnb

02-09-2004, 05:02 PM

Originally posted by tsxclub
vbulletin masks all passwords so we cannot see them. :D

Yup, vbulletin started encryping passwords in the version 2.3 release. Earlier versions of vbulletin did not perform encryption.

hondafreak4eva

02-09-2004, 05:15 PM

Originally posted by larchmont
I know what you mean. But I hope people might regard the issues in the first post as interesting and relevant. And the way I got to wonder about the issues was from problems on other sites. I'm relatively new to the net, and I'm just learning about how it is. But I'm also coming to think that it's not just that I'm learning, it's that the whole system is still finding its way. I think it's astonishing that admins/mods on some sites believe that suppression and abusiveness will work in the long run, and I think it's astonishing that many members so far have been willing to take it in stride, on the theory that it's free so we'll just take it. I think it's likely that pretty soon things will evolve in a different direction, and in fact I think that discussions like this will help that happen. But meanwhile I think it will be interesting if others express their opinions and expectations.

Also, as I mentioned in reply to one of your other posts, I thought you might feel this whole thing is useful for bringing more people over here.

my thoughts on this matter.. .and another memebers thoughts also...

http://www.tsxclub.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=7911#post7911

larchmont

02-10-2004, 02:49 AM

Originally posted by dnb
Hello, C '71.....
And a super big hello to you, DNB -- Ph.D. '89, was it????

(This is a coupla Cornell dudes talkin'.)

Great of you to stop by, DNB -- hope you'll be coming by again.

I remember how you were the first to analyze the TL photos and to realize that the car was going to be smaller than anyone had imagined. And even after you did that, hardly anybody would believe it. Even a few of the expert insiders were saying it couldn't be true.

I just love stuff like that.

Back to topic: Appreciated your posts. I don't know about the range of kinds of sites, since for the most part I've looked only at a few Acura sites. And the thoughts I put forth were meant to apply just to those kinds of sites, plus I guess other sites that cater to similar demographics.

I hope we'll be hearing more about what people think it's reasonable to expect on internet sites. I will indeed be surprised if people say they think it's fine for admins/mods routinely to do things in capricious or nasty ways.

dnb

02-10-2004, 10:58 AM

Originally posted by larchmont
And a super big hello to you, DNB -- Ph.D. '89, was it????
Yup.

Back to topic: Appreciated your posts. I don't know about the range of kinds of sites, since for the most part I've looked only at a few Acura sites. And the thoughts I put forth were meant to apply just to those kinds of sites, plus I guess other sites that cater to similar demographics.

The TSX may have its set of target demographics, but I don't think you can apply those to the TSX web sites. These web sites have members who've come from more "rowdy" sites such as acura-cl.com and clubsi.com. I'd expect such members to be more tolerant of flaming, etc.

I hope we'll be hearing more about what people think it's reasonable to expect on internet sites. I will indeed be surprised if people say they think it's fine for admins/mods routinely to do things in capricious or nasty ways.
I wish we could discuss this via PM or email. I think definitions of "reasonable expectations" vary a lot among forum members.

larchmont

02-10-2004, 02:05 PM

Originally posted by dnb
....The TSX may have its set of target demographics, but I don't think you can apply those to the TSX web sites. These web sites have members who've come from more "rowdy" sites such as acura-cl.com and clubsi.com. I'd expect such members to be more tolerant of flaming, etc.....
Maybe you're right -- certainly you're right so far -- but I'm looking just a little into the future and making some different projections that I think change the picture:

(1) First of all, some things about the TSX:

(a) It will continue to be a very successful car.
(b) MANY of its new customers will be coming from other brands, meaning they haven't owned other Acuras and they've never been on those other sites you mention.
(c) The new customers will tend to be somewhat older, i.e. more "mature, no offense to the younger people here but yes indeed offense to the flamers on some car sites.
(d) The customer base will tend to become somewhat more affluent, in part because the prices of the TSX will increase with time -- I mean not only routine increases that would occur with cars in general, but a little beyond that.

(2) More and more people will be involved on the net, including especially people from the older demographics -- i.e. people like me. :confused:

(3) As instances like the current "crisis" occur, people will realize more and more that they don't HAVE TO tolerate the kinds of things that we've been noting. I think they've been taking it just because they assume they have to. There are many analogies to this in the history of societies -- I'm sure y'all could name several yourselves just off the top of your heads. Considering how fast things evolve on the net, I don't think it will be that long.

About PM etc: I've explained a few times why I don't do it. But anyway, why isn't this particular subject completely fair game for the community? Seems to me to be TOTALLY a community issue. (No????)

dnb

02-10-2004, 03:33 PM

Originally posted by larchmont
Maybe you're right -- certainly you're right so far -- but I'm looking just a little into the future and making some different projections that I think change the picture:

(1) First of all, some things about the TSX:

(a) It will continue to be a very successful car.
(b) MANY of its new customers will be coming from other brands, meaning they haven't owned other Acuras and they've never been on those other sites you mention.
(c) The new customers will tend to be somewhat older, i.e. more "mature, no offense to the younger people here but yes indeed offense to the flamers on some car sites.
Hmmm. I doubt the new customers will be more mature.

But let's assume for argument's sake that they will be more mature. Let's assume the online population of TSX owners becomes similar to those of the A4 and 3-series. I'd still claim that you will encounter cases of immature and possibly offensive behavior. As examples, here are some threads from A4 and 3-series fora:

http://forums.audiworld.com/other/msgs/2299054.phtml

http://forums.audiworld.com/other/msgs/2298953.phtml

http://bimmer.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/e46-lounge/4623746-1.html

http://bimmer.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/e46-lounge/4597659-3.html

(3) As instances like the current "crisis" occur, people will realize more and more that they don't HAVE TO tolerate the kinds of things that we've been noting.
Some people won't tolerate it. Some people will. And others won't be bothered by it.

It all boils down to our finding the online communities with which we're comfortable.

About PM etc: I've explained a few times why I don't do it. But anyway, why isn't this particular subject completely fair game for the community? Seems to me to be TOTALLY a community issue.
I think it's fair game, but there are some comments that are best restricted to email or PM.

prolix21

02-10-2004, 03:56 PM

my two cents:

personally, i don't think its the topic that causes the problem. its the individual. some people are just unable to take any sort of criticism, whether it be constructive or not. some people are also unable to accept that others don't agree with them or see eye to eye on the same issues. (i know.. its shocking..)

the fact is the web is full of immature and stupid people. if you aren't capable of having a civilized discussion with other people you have no business joining a forum.

i don't see any problems with what larch posted, there were valid concerns and i didn't see any sort of personal attacks there. but for whatever reason the 'powers that be' on the other site(s) couldn't deal with it so they acted out.

taking criticism is part of life. if you can't take it then you've got problems and you're going to continue to have problems throughout your life.

i ran a music forum for a number of years and believe me, nothing sparks emotions in some people like music tastes, yet we had a mature and educated enough group that it never became an issue. we all respected eachothers right to have an opinion and moved on. i also encourged political debate there, whats the point of freedom if we can't debate and have educated and challenging conversations. and yes, we even had educated and even heated debates, but it never got to the point where we would ban someone for their opionion.

i think if the other tsx sites want to grow and become useful they need to stop this censoring and personal stuff. grow up, and maybe the site will follow. right now its just boring. how many posts can you possibly have about which intake is better?

i may have strayed off topic a bit, but seriously a lot of this could be avoided if people checked their ego's at the door. that goes for site admins too.

larchmont

02-10-2004, 10:17 PM

Originally posted by dnb
Hmmm. I doubt the new customers will be more mature.

But let's assume for argument's sake that they will be more mature. Let's assume the online population of TSX owners becomes similar to those of the A4 and 3-series. I'd still claim that you will encounter cases of immature and possibly offensive behavior. As examples, here are some threads from A4 and 3-series fora.....
Great to keep seeing you here, DNB! BTW -- Did you dig what Prolix said about running a music forum?

Back to the main matter: I don't doubt that there will always be cases of immature and offensive behavior. But what I'm saying is that I think the "average" maturity level of members will increase, and therefore immature and offensive behavior IN ADMINS AND MODS won't be tolerated and won't be effective in attracting and retaining members.

An additional wrinkle to this, which nobody has mentioned but which may possibly be heavily behind the concerns "over there," or if it's not it should be: Advertisers. The advertisers presumably help a lot with the bills, and going forward they will probably be viewed as more and more important, including because (I imagine) it is hoped they will generate significant revenue. And advertisers aren't just interested in volume of membership and activity, they're also interested in the nature of the membership, maybe more so. I believe advertisers will be very mindful of the kind of thing I'm talking about here -- i.e. what kinds of people a site will and won't be able to attract and keep.

larchmont

02-10-2004, 10:26 PM

Originally posted by prolix21
.....some people are just unable to take any sort of criticism, whether it be constructive or not.....the fact is the web is full of immature and stupid people.....

i don't see any problems with what larch posted, there were valid concerns and i didn't see any sort of personal attacks there. but for whatever reason the 'powers that be' on the other site(s) couldn't deal with it so they acted out.

taking criticism is part of life. if you can't take it then you've got problems and you're going to continue to have problems throughout your life.

i think if the other tsx sites want to grow and become useful they need to stop this censoring and personal stuff. grow up, and maybe the site will follow.....
a lot of this could be avoided if people checked their ego's at the door. that goes for site admins too.
Thanks, Prolix.

....i ran a music forum for a number of years and believe me, nothing sparks emotions in some people like music tastes, yet we had a mature and educated enough group that it never became an issue.....i also encourged political debate there, whats the point of freedom if we can't debate and have educated and challenging conversations.....
Super cool. Don't know if you noticed it, but quite a few people here, including DNB and myself, are big music buffs.

dnb

02-11-2004, 11:14 AM

Originally posted by larchmont
Did you dig what Prolix said about running a music forum?
Yup. What he said doesn't surprise me. I'd expect music fans to be a pretty levelheaded group.

Except for fans of Beethoven's 9th. That piece is more overexposed than anything from Britney Spears or Madonna (though I'll admit it was used well in the first "Die Hard" movie.) I refuse to sing any adaptations of the 9th in church. My wife finds this amusing, but hey, a man's got to stand for his beliefs.

But what I'm saying is that I think the "average" maturity level of members will increase, and therefore immature and offensive behavior IN ADMINS AND MODS won't be tolerated and won't be effective in attracting and retaining members.
I agree with you. Unfortunately, we are going down a train of thought that IMHO is best discussed in email or PM.

larchmont

02-11-2004, 11:51 AM

I assume you don't mean about the basic topic, which I think is a great and appropriate one for a site.

And actually I really don't see why any of this would be considered not to be. It's a general topic of general interest, it's about internet sites, and it grew out of our collective experience on sites.

dnb

02-11-2004, 12:08 PM

Originally posted by larchmont
And actually I really don't see why any of this would be considered not to be. It's a general topic of general interest, it's about internet sites, and it grew out of our collective experience on sites.
I consider "immature and offensive behavior" in context of the current situation to be a gray area. You can PM or email me if you want more comments.

larchmont

02-11-2004, 12:13 PM

I guess we see it differently. But anyway...... I did just try to e-mail you, but the system doesn't allow it! (The screen gives one of those messages saying that you don't wish to receive e-mails, which I think is fine, of course -- I only tried since you suggested it.)

As I've explained a number of times (I guess you didn't happen to see them, and anyway I know I'm in a minority on this), I generally much prefer not to do PM or e-mail. Sorry, everybody -- I know it limits things.

Anyway I'd love to see more of your comments somehow, DNB.

dnb

02-11-2004, 01:18 PM

Originally posted by larchmont
I guess we see it differently. But anyway...... I did just try to e-mail you, but the system doesn't allow it! (The screen gives one of those messages saying that you don't wish to receive e-mails, which I think is fine, of course -- I only tried since you suggested it.)

Hang on --- let's see if email can be enabled. I just opened the following: http://www.tsxclub.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1084

Ray

02-11-2004, 01:30 PM

Sorry guys I am not sure why e-mail isn’t working please use the PM function for the time being till this issue is resolved.

larchmont

02-11-2004, 02:01 PM

The reason I tried the e-mail is that I much prefer not to have the PM function on.

I'm really surprised that this keeps coming up again and again, on all sites.
I'm not blaming y'all, because obviously you're in the majority.

But doesn't the fact that the basic system is set up to give people the CHOICE to either have or not have PM (as well as e-mailing) indicate a recognition that people might well NOT wish to have these functions? So why is it considered so odd and/or unexpected when someone indeed elects not to, and why the constant prodding to enable those features when people have made a clear point of preferring not to???

No need for anyone to answer. I'm content to just leave it as a rhetorical question.
But it does puzzle me, because there seems to be an inconsistency.

Anyway I'm very eager to hear what DNB might want to share, and so I look forward to doing the e-mail as soon as the system is fixed.

hondafreak4eva

02-11-2004, 02:52 PM

Originally posted by larchmont
The reason I tried the e-mail is that I much prefer not to have the PM function on.

I'm really surprised that this keeps coming up again and again, on all sites.
I'm not blaming y'all, because obviously you're in the majority.

But doesn't the fact that the basic system is set up to give people the CHOICE to either have or not have PM (as well as e-mailing) indicate a recognition that people might well NOT wish to have these functions? So why is it considered so odd and/or unexpected when someone indeed elects not to, and why the constant prodding to enable those features when people have made a clear point of preferring not to???

No need for anyone to answer. I'm content to just leave it as a rhetorical question.

i can't help but answer this one.. it's just that some stuff doesn't apply to everyone.. and most people don't need to see it.. so that kinda stuff should be confined to a pm/e-mail for the general sake of everyone else...

it's just a common courtesy thing...

anything discussed should apply to the majority or else be limited to the people that need to be seeing..

thas my .02 on it...

larchmont

02-11-2004, 11:09 PM

Originally posted by dnb
....I doubt the new customers will be more mature. But let's assume for argument's sake that they will be more mature. Let's assume the online population of TSX owners becomes similar to those of the A4 and 3-series. I'd still claim that you will encounter cases of immature and possibly offensive behavior. As examples, here are some threads from A4 and 3-series fora:

http://forums.audiworld.com/other/msgs/2299054.phtml

http://forums.audiworld.com/other/msgs/2298953.phtml

http://bimmer.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/e46-lounge/4623746-1.html

http://bimmer.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/e46-lounge/4597659-3.html.....
I glanced at all of those and none of them bother me; in fact I think a lot of it is great.
Risque and even raunch, IMO, can be fine. When I talk about "offensive," I don't mean it primarily in any moral or moralistic way.

I'm talking about how people are treated.

johnej

04-10-2005, 01:51 AM

does this little manifesto from Larch still hold true???

I am just wondering :)

larchmont

04-10-2005, 08:26 AM

Wow -- ej knows no bounds when it comes to resurrecting threads. :D

BTW....."site #1" was Club TSX, and "site #2" was AZ (which had a different name at that time of course).
All 5 points that I mentioned were based on issues that had occurred at those other places, but that was a long time ago and the specifics have long since faded into the background.
And those sites never ceased to come up with newer and bigger problems. :D

In posting those points, I was partly just venting my frustrations from those other sites, especially AZ. But I was also thinking out loud and seeking feedback and advice.
Now, even though I'm 14 months older and wiser, I would stand by all those points.
And FWIW it so happens that this site gets an A+ on all of them.

johnej

04-10-2005, 11:58 AM

I agree wholeheartedly larch, like i said i read all the posts and wondered if you still felt the same way. :)

I have to come up with ways to pw when no one is around....

1SICKLEX

04-10-2005, 02:20 PM

I actually think age will go down. B/C with the sites I am involved with, as the car becomes older, the price goes down and if its a vehicle of interest to young people, they will begin to purchase the car since its more affordable.

Larchmont brings great points and to all websites, it begins with the admin/mods. They set the direction for the site. They are the ones that enforce or chose NOT to enforce rules. They are the ones that can lock threads.

But they should ALSO be people that help the site, find out out the car(s) and develop threads for members to read. They should hopefully be owners of the car(s) so they can take pics and answer questions members have.

IMO, car lounges should be in addition to the site and a place people do hang out. But the site should be about the cars with FAQs, etc etc for owners and potential owners to learn from.

As for people complaining, if there are THAT many people with issues, something is wrong with the site. You should have nit-pickers and the occasional "this is not fair" or "why" thread in the site suggestions/problems forum.

Bottom line, no one forces anyone to post, so people can choose where they want to contribute.

robert_tg

04-10-2005, 03:53 PM

Larch, based on what I came across in pieces here n' there I'm just beginning to get the picture of your "issue", if you will, with az.

I wish you'd keep PM on...just want to interject an observation I have since i first came upon your posts there:
- your posts usually tend to be quite long. Not saying it's good/bad.
But personally i am just totally convinced that people JUST DO NOT READ, at least not on the Net, and definitely not on a busy forum filled with car-crazy peep. Maybe people over say 40 but under that, in general, just fecking dont.
At BEST peep scan.

So guess what happens when communication becomes one-way/chopped/diluted ?

I'm also surprised how involved in :sport62: you were with AZ owner.
Obviously Prov was trying quite hard to pull you away from the skirmish and tell you to deal with him.

Personally i think, in a way that owner takes on a different personality when it comes to dealing with that forum of his filled with car-crazy peeps from all over.

To me, his professional site (i.e his blog) reveals a different personality.
You take AZ and you take his blog site - it's like South Bronx vs Westchester County, lol - very different content, very different culture, very different "customers" - and very different "shop owner" ;).

I am in the same field so I come to that observation.
AZ aside, I rather admire his talents & skills and his professional beliefs ("Web Standards"...arrgh never mind ;) ) and what he's done at his age.

johnej

04-10-2005, 05:14 PM

so resurrecting this thread was a good idea...

MemphisRheins

04-10-2005, 05:36 PM

yeah, for once u attcually did something right Johnej...

I just read the whole thread, and as usual agree alot w/ your stuff larch, Wish my goodbye Thread was still open or Id post ur 5 points right there, Nail em to the Church Door Sought of Say...

larchmont

04-10-2005, 06:20 PM

Interesting posts all around.

RTG, very interesting what you say about that guy's "other personality." But I don't care at all about that, and we shouldn't much either. All that mattered was how he ran the site. (How much do you care about whether your doctor can paint or play music? How much do you care about whether your car service guy is good in the sack? It's irrelevant.)

As LEX said, it all comes down to the admins/mods and how the site is run.

To MemphisRheins: Yeah, I woulda loved to see stuff like that over there. And in fact, if I had been there just a little longer, that's what I woulda written over there. Which of course the boss didn't want.
It would be futile anyway, obviously.
What you DID write was everything that could be said that served any purpose, and you did a great job of it.