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View Full Version : What America really thinks about Iraq


larchmont
02-19-2004, 12:12 PM
So, Howard Dean gave up yesterday. It was about a week and a half overdue.

As uber-world-commentator of the TSX forums :rolleyes: I would like to take full credit :soapbox: for being (maybe) the first one :ikno: to say that Dean was toast -- actually said it a couple of hours before the "I have a scream" speech, when everybody was still assuming he was the guy even though he wasn't even doing what he needed to do in Iowa and what was thought to be a piece of cake for him.

Eeeeeeeyyaaahhhhhhhhh! :mardi:

Not that I have anything against Dean, but he just was never going to get anywhere, unless people were complete idiots, which they're not. In essence he based his campaign on complete opposition to going into Iraq, which wasn't going to do it.

It's become clear, I think, that most Americans realize it's a lot more complicated than that. Kerry and Edwards (and others) have come under fire for seeming to take different positions at different times, like voting to authorize the use of force in the first place but then not voting for the extra $87 billion or whatever it was. But the fact seems to be that most Americans are quite ambivalent about the war, and that they themselves have felt different things at different times, depending on the situation and what exactly was the question that came up. When I'd see these polls that show the percentage of people "for" or "against" the war, I didn't know what I would say, and I didn't know if that meant I was smarter or stupider than all the people who could just say yes or no. At first my answer would have been, "Well, FOR, I guess," and later it would have been, "Well, AGAINST, I guess."

And it's seeming more and more like maybe that's really where most Americans are. That's a big part of why Dean was never going to get anywhere, and why people like Kerry and Edwards haven't been skewered. And I doubt that this ambivalence is just among Democrats.

Unless the Bush people can acknowledge this and find a way to take it into their message, I think they're going to have a big problem in November. They're coming from the total opposite direction of Dean, but their position seems no more tenable.

Oh, almost forgot -- "Just my 1.5 cents of course."
(In this instance, please ignore my sig.)

jcg878
02-19-2004, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by larchmont
It's become clear, I think, that most Americans realize it's a lot more complicated than that. Kerry and Edwards (and others) have come under fire for seeming to take different positions at different times, like voting to authorize the use of force in the first place but then not voting for the extra $87 billion or whatever it was. But the fact seems to be that most Americans are quite ambivalent about the war, and that they themselves have felt different things at different times, depending on the situation and what exactly was the question that came up. When I'd see these polls that show the percentage of people "for" or "against" the war, I didn't know what I would say, and I didn't know if that meant I was smarter or stupider than all the people who could just say yes or no. At first my answer would have been, "Well, FOR, I guess," and later it would have been, "Well, AGAINST, I guess."

I guess I have a much more pessimistic view of our citizenry. I don't think most Americans realize that its more complicated than that, or at least, they didn't realize it at the time we were told 'it's time to invade, dammit!' How many people still connect Iraq with 9/11??

The shifting justification of the war really bothers me, as does the ambivalence of the American public. I wish people were outraged about being lied to, not just content with 'so there were no WMD, at least we got rid of Saddam'. IMO we'll look back at this one as one of the great mistakes of American foreign policy, but it will only become apparent years from now after many soldiers are killed and an unstable Iraqi government collapses.

Or maybe I'm totally wrong and democracy will sweep the middle east in a big American wave ahead of the next neo-con-led military action.

:soapbox:

larch - I seem to remember stating that the capture of Saddam was the end of Dean quite a while ago.... ;)

larchmont
02-19-2004, 07:17 PM
Originally posted by jcg878
.....IMO we'll look back at this one as one of the great mistakes of American foreign policy, but it will only become apparent years from now after many soldiers are killed and an unstable Iraqi government collapses.

Or maybe I'm totally wrong and democracy will sweep the middle east in a big American wave ahead of the next neo-con-led military action.
That's just it. Either is possible. Or even both.
.....I seem to remember stating that the capture of Saddam was the end of Dean quite a while ago.....
Indeed you did! :thumbsup:

But I was the first one who said "toast." :ikno:

In the WORLD! :D

jcg878
02-19-2004, 10:51 PM
Originally posted by larchmont
That's just it. Either is possible. Or even both.


"They could be made to accept the most flagrant violations of reality, because they never fully grasped the enormity of what was demanded of them, and were not sufficiently interested in public events to notice what was happening."

- G.O., 1984

I guess we'll see.


Boy am I in a mood! I'll go talk about cars now. :rolleyes:

larchmont
02-19-2004, 11:43 PM
But besides that, JCG -- even seeing all the current and eventual realities for what they are/will be, it may be legitimately possible and even necessary to conclude both to be true.

That's why I proudly claim to be a moron. I wouldn't be able to take the strain of trying to be smart. :D


Not to mention trying to figure out Soze's posts over there.

johnej
03-30-2005, 11:42 PM
But besides that, JCG -- even seeing all the current and eventual realities for what they are/will be, it may be legitimately possible and even necessary to conclude both to be true.

That's why I proudly claim to be a moron. I wouldn't be able to take the strain of trying to be smart. :D

So Larch did the current and eventual realities come true..??

jcg878
03-31-2005, 12:02 AM
So Larch did the current and eventual realities come true..??

We will only know in 5-10 years. I'm willing to own up to it if I'm wrong... and I hope I am!!

johnej
03-31-2005, 12:05 AM
That is a reasonable time frame for the stuff that is happening....

larchmont
03-31-2005, 01:01 AM
We will only know in 5-10 years. I'm willing to own up to it if I'm wrong... and I hope I am!!
Kee-rect!

Except we won't know even then. Because even in the best case scenario, many people will feel we could have gotten there more wisely and with less cost of lives, well-being, dollars, and good will.

MemphisRheins
03-31-2005, 01:08 AM
Well im one of the people that are content w/ the fact we got Sadam out of there... It takes time to set up a gov't, we didnt realize that in Afghanistan, and now that countries even more of a Sh*tbox...

I dont think people mention South Korea enough, If the US hadnt stepped in and helped in the Korean war, It wouldn't exist, and The entire Korean Peninsula would be gone to Sh*t w/ nuclear weapons

Dean was an interesting Canidate, for a while there I thought he was gonna edge out Kerry...

Im just glad that bush did win to tell the truth, I would of been really upset w/ Edwards in the VP seat, all we need is some a$$hole who made his fortune suing people in Office... wed have enough crap on the homefront that Iraq wouldnt even matter anymore

larchmont
03-31-2005, 01:23 AM
Suing is important, especially against big companies.
It's a big part of what keeps them in line -- the fear of being sued.

You can say all you want about the costs and hassles of being sued and the fear of being sued.
But if it weren't for the fear of getting sued, those companies would be walking all over us.

HondaMan
03-31-2005, 10:26 AM
Dubya = 4 more years! :D

Well, like I have said before...the left will find themselves on the wrong side of history (once again)...be it sooner or later. :sport62: