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View Full Version : Ralph Nader take note: "Special Interests" are GOOD!


larchmont
02-22-2004, 11:00 PM
Yeah, that's what I said -- "Special Interests" are good.

And this is a knee-jerk liberal talking.


So, Ralph Nader is running again, because he says there isn't enough difference between the parties and they're dominated by "Special Interests."

Not that I always thought this, but......"Special Interests," besides their negatives, are the main thing that keep a president/governor/senator/mayor GROUNDED, and they're the main thing that tell us basically what to expect from him and what we can count on from him, because he's beholden to them. It guides and restricts what he's going to do. Usually we think of that as bad. But I say it's more good than bad.

It's easy to think that we'd like our leaders to act just according to their judgment, or conscience, or "what's right." But, do we? Remember, this is human beings that we're talking about -- fallible human beings, with egos, and bad days and bad weeks, and the abundant ability to make errors of thinking and judgment, and sometimes to just not see stuff.

At the risk of seeming like a total wuss.....it reminds me of Ted Baxter from the Mary Tyler Moore show. One time he was asking for a raise, and he was looking for some leverage, so he said, it's not that he wasn't already giving his all, but if he got more money, he would "take the lid off." And Lou Grant said:

"Ted, we DON'T WANT the lid off."

And that's just it. When you take the lid off, everything depends on the person's fly-by-the-seat-of-his-pants judgment, which maybe is too fallible for a society like ours, and too unpredictable. With "Special Interests" involved, there's sort of a "road map" to be followed. There's a lot to be said for that. Without special interests, we'd have a lot more stuff like Howard Dean taking off his jacket and throwing it into the crowd and rolling up his sleeves and screaming and looking and sounding like a total schmuck, and having our country run in that kind of way.

So, it's not that "Special Interests" are bad and should be eliminated (like Ralph Nader says), it's that we just need to pay close attention to which Special Interests are on a candidate's "road map." It's the main thing that enables us to know what we'll be able to expect if he wins.

Of course we have to keep an eye on the truth meter when candidates talk about Special Interests. Like, John Edwards keeps talking against special interests and how he's not involved with them. But, almost all his money comes from trial lawyers, which I'd say is a "Special Interest."

So: Special Interests, you're getting a bum rap.

Ralph Nader: :madfawk:

larchmont
02-23-2004, 10:54 AM
Oh..... and to those who wonder if Nader's candidacy will hurt the Democrats:

Not if we explain loud and clear, and again and again, why people shouldn't vote for him. Which is why we're doing it.

bob shiftright
02-23-2004, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by larchmont
Oh..... and to those who wonder if Nader's candidacy will hurt the Democrats

Ummmmm. Yes, it will.

But not the way 99% of the opinionators think. Not by directly drawing any significant number of votes away.

Nader made a difference in, at most, two (2) states in 2000.

1.) New Hampshire. 4 electoral votes. It wouldn't matter if Gore carried New Hampshire today with the shift of 7 electoral votes to the "red" states as a result of the 2000 census.

2.) Florida. Ralph Nader captured 97,488 votes, much greater than the difference of 537 votes between Bush's 2,912,790 to Gore's 2,912,253.

Forward to 2002. Remember how the Democrats were going to "show" the Republicans? Result: Governor Jeb Bush won re-election by 655,592 votes and ligntning-rod Katherine Harris was elected to Congress by a margin of 24,322 votes. A landslide by any other name is still a landslide.

So what happened?

My simple answer: look at the population demographcs in Florida between 2000 and 2002.

So IMO Nader wouldn't have affected the Florida outcome if the 2000 election were held with 2002 voters. Even if he were to appear on all 50 state ballots in 2004, even if he were the Green Party nominee, Nader would be unlikely to have any significant affect on any vote totals.

Nader will affect Kerry the same way that letting 20psi of air out of the left front tire of Kerry's Rolls-Royce will affect him, by making him pull to the left!

All IMO, OCICBW, etc. etc. etc.:)

larchmont
02-23-2004, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by bob shiftright
....OCICBW.....
Had to google that one. :D
And I think ALL OF US are going to be at least partly wrong on this, because it's complex and multi-dimensional. The one thing I feel sure about is that we'll never really know for sure whether Nader's candidacy hurt the Democrats.

I think it's going to be basically a non-factor, with the pluses and minuses essentially canceling out, and anyway I think that by far the main factor will be "none."

What "pluses"? Here's one: His presence will highlight what happened in 2000, and this will increase Democrat turnout.

OCICBW. But, any argument that can be made on one side can easily be countered with just as good an argument on the other.

About 2002: Yes, but that was a totally different ballgame from what we have now.
The Democrats were confused, disoriented, unfocused, and stunned. I don't know how to put it any more redundantly. :D


So.....Anybody except me think that "Special Interests" are actually GOOD?

bob shiftright
02-23-2004, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by larchmont
So.....Anybody except me think that "Special Interests" are actually GOOD?

It's all a matter of perspective. One way to avoid "special interests" ENTIRELY is to have a one-party system like North Korea, Cuba or the District of Columbia, explaining how these entities became the "success" they are today.

So, yes. I agree! Put another way, MY "special interests" are good, but your "special interests" are bad!

;)

larchmont
02-23-2004, 10:56 PM
Heh heh -- that's what I meant too. :D

It's "pick your poison." But what I'm saying is, we WANT poison, which I'm calling "road map."
It's better than having the leaders fly by the seat of their pants.

larchmont
02-24-2004, 02:55 AM
note: This post was in reply to a post by Jason, which he has since deleted.


Cool, Jason's on here. :D

How about an argument about which thread is better? asdfg

I say ours is better because we're getting to the basic core.
The other one is just the standard "How bad is this for the Democrats/Ralph Nader is a jerk" stuff.
We, on the other hand, are solving the world's problems. :tribe:


Actually it's a very good thread you got, esp. once the jerk took some time off. (BTW I don't mean my usual nemesis.)

P.S. Gonna take a look over there...... :reading:

larchmont
02-24-2004, 03:11 AM
note: This post was in reply to a post by Jason, which he has since deleted.


Took another look -- I hadn't seen the latest "good" stuff.
Boy, would I like a piece of that fellow. Besides that, I'm worried that some people might think he's ME.
But I hope they realize that despite the unfortunate similarities, I could never be that much of an a**hole.

It reminds me a lot of a novel by Nabokov, called "Pale Fire." It's about a mildly likable but troubled fellow who unknowingly reveals himself not through the story itself but through the footnotes. That dude you got is revealing himself more in his supposed explanations and justifications than in his content. It's comical, and sad.

larchmont
02-24-2004, 02:48 PM
Huh. And I thought I would turn the entire national debate by pointing out how Special Interests are actually good.

Give it time, give it time. :D

jcg878
02-24-2004, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by larchmont
How about an argument about which thread is better?

I say ours is better, since it includes discussions about B-1 bombers :rolleyes: (though I've noticed both are limited to just a few people)

My 2 cents about Nader in 2000 - yes he hurt the Democrats, but Gore never should have blown that election so effectively in the first place.

Nader in 2004, perhaps bob is right about him pulling Kerry left, but I was really surprised at his Sunday annoucement. Actually, I had a thread over here just about to post about "will he?" with a vote for 'no', but didn't post it :rolleyes:

larchmont
02-25-2004, 01:19 AM
Oh.....nobody asked, but I just know y'all are wondering......Why am I talking so much here about "Special Interests"?

Because, as near as I can tell, the main fundamental difference between Nader and any Democratic candidate is his vendetta against special interests.

Assuming this is accurate, then if "Special Interests" are actually GOOD, that removes any strong reason to support Nader. Even on principle.