Best handling japanese 4-door car under 30k

[pocketkiller]

Please don't tell me about the EVO or STI, because I wouldn't consider them.

[larchmont]

Hey, wait a minute.....You think you can get a G35 or IS300 for under 30K?
They'd have to be kind of stripped and you'd have to do some good dealing.

As I've posted, I drove a G35 for a few days recently. It was good but not great. I missed the TSX quite a bit, including for the handling. But I know that a lot of people consider the G35's handling to be superior.

A problem with this poll is that probably few people have actually tried all 4 cars, so they'll be voting mainly on what they've heard or read. I've only tried the TSX and the G35.

[Joker]

As I posted in the poll, I have only driven one of the cars listed.
I will tell you though, that for under $30K, the TSX handles awesome ;)
Joker - who is bias :p

[pocketkiller]

You can get them at base price for under $30k. You're right that most people will not have driven all 4 cars, but I also want to gauge perceptions as well.

[larchmont]

If you want to rank people's perceptions, that's something else.
I think the perceptions of the 4 cars would probably rank like this:

(1) G35
(2) IS300 (close second)
(3) TSX
(4) Mazda 6

But I think that's the perception, not the reality.

[TSX 'R' US]

Well...I have driven the Mazda 6 (6i and 6s)...and I'm thinking about going to test drive an IS sometime soon...for the heck of it...

I'd have to say the handling on the 6 is close the the TSX.

[kiteboy]

Originally posted by TSX 'R' US
I'd have to say the handling on the 6 is close the the TSX.

Agreed. When shopping for the TSX, I tested all of the above and also the 9-3. On the street, all of the cars are good handlers and very close to each other.

[ChinchillaX]

G35, yeah, baby, yeah!!!! RWD V6!1blue1.gif

too bad I didn't have the money to afford one at the time.:(

TSX would be a close second cuz I own one and like the handling!

[larchmont]

OK, how about some semi-objective information and data:

Consumer Guide evaluates and rates cars on various categories, including handling (actually I see they've expanded that category to "Steering/Handling/Braking."

Let's see what they say. The maximum score is 10. (On the Infiniti and the Mazda, different models got different scores.)


TSX: 8 out of 10

Impressively agile on challenging mountain roads, with assuring grip, minimal body lean. Quick, responsive steering adds to the fun. Standard antiskid system enhances dynamic security. Powerful brakes have excellent pedal feel.

G35: Base sedan 7, Sedan w/Sport Suspension 8, AWD Sedan 7, Coupe manual 8

All G35s grippy, agile--a close match for targeted BMW 3-Series and Mercedes-Benz C-Class--though European rivals have edge in high-speed stability, steering feedback. On bumpy surfaces, coupes with 18-inch wheels can be tossed slightly off course as low-profile tires fail to absorb shocks. Strong brakes.

Mazda 6: "i" Sedan auto 7, "i" Hatchback manual 8, "s" Sedan manual 7, "s" Wagon auto 7

Best with Sport Package, but all models agile and composed, even the wagon. Modest body lean in turns, responsive steering, fine straightline tracking. V6s show mild steering-wheel tug in fast takeoffs. Wide turning circle hurts close-quarters maneuverability. Brakes strong, progressive.

IS300: 7 out of 10

All models are agile, but steering feel and overall balance lack the precision of top European rivals. Overly sensitive traction control cuts in too quickly on manual-transmission models, yet fast cornering with traction control disengaged risks an early tail slide. Simulated panic stops showed good stability, shorter-than-average distances.


The verdict:

It's not definitely clear how to rank these reviews, in part because of how the various G35 and Mazda models got different scores. But, doing my best to put aside any bias, it looks truly like the TSX gets the best write-up. First of all, it gets a flat-out 8/10 score, which none of the others do. And besides, the TSX write-up is more free of "ifs-ands-and-buts" than the others. Interestingly the IS300 write-up seems to be the least good. Another interesting thing is that the only Mazda that gets 8 (rather than 7) is one of its lower-level models.

[wariosport]

I just came from Germany not to long ago. How about Audi? I think those are under 30k. I would have gotten one if I didn't have to wait for four months to recieve it (special order). I mean 1.8 turbo, awd, 6 speed, and full service included with the warranty. Granted I think the TSX is a little more roomier.

[larchmont]

Originally posted by wariosport
I just came from Germany not to long ago. How about Audi? I think those are under 30k. I would have gotten one if I didn't have to wait for four months to recieve it (special order). I mean 1.8 turbo, awd, 6 speed, and full service included with the warranty. Granted I think the TSX is a little more roomier.
Welcom, wario! Nice first post! Yes, that's true, and I'm not sure why he restricted it to those 4. As I said, it's debatable whether all of those up there should really be regarded as "under 30K," but it they are there, I have no idea why the A4 isn't there. It looks like you can get some A4's well under 30K, especially the 1.8T's.

And I didn't understand either why the BMW 3-series isn't there. We have seen instances of people getting a 3-series for under 30K, including our man Ferg.

[TSX 'R' US]

Originally posted by larchmont
Welcom, wario! Nice first post! Yes, that's true, and I'm not sure why he restricted it to those 4. As I said, it's debatable whether all of those up there should really be regarded as "under 30K," but it they are there, I have no idea why the A4 isn't there. It looks like you can get some A4's well under 30K, especially the 1.8T's.

And I didn't understand either why the BMW 3-series isn't there. We have seen instances of people getting a 3-series for under 30K, including our man Ferg.
No A4's because it's comparing Japanese cars :p

[larchmont]

Originally posted by TSX 'R' US
No A4's because it's comparing Japanese cars :p
:slapping self in head real hard:


BTW about those Consumer Guide ratings: It's quite a statement about the TSX that when you check an objective source, the TSX actually seems to be #1.

Assuming it's true, it's still going to take a while for reputation to catch up to reality.
Even on car sites (including even TSX sites), most people will probably continue to think that the only way you can consider TSX #1 is if you're biased.

[TSX 'R' US]

Here you go Larch...I'll help you out :slap:

:D

[pocketkiller]

Thanks for the responses guys. I especially like the CG rankings. I was also sort of assuming the tires would be the same on each car.

[larchmont]

Originally posted by pocketkiller
Thanks for the responses guys. I especially like the CG rankings.....
Does it surprise you that the TSX looks so good in the comparisons?

[larchmont]

BTW for additional comparison, here's what CG said for the Accord and Camry:

Accord LX sedan auto 6, EX-L sedan auto 7, EX V6 sedan auto 7, EX V6 coupe manual 8

Poised and front-drive predictable, Accord changes direction with a sportier feel than most rivals, abetted by quick, informative steering. V6s and 4-cyl EXs have the best cornering grip and precision. Other Accords are less composed in fast turns on their narrower, all-season tires. Tight turning radius aids low-speed maneuverability. Simulated panic stops with ABS test models stable and progressive, if not exceptionally short.

Camry 6 (all models)

Predictable, pleasant. Body lean apparent but not excessive in tight, fast turns. SE has slightly less lean, better stability, but lacks sports-sedan poise. Steering quick, precise, but could use better road feel. Strong, easily modulated brakes, but be sure to get ABS.

[kiteboy]

Originally posted by larchmont
Mazda 6: "i" Sedan auto 7, "i" Hatchback manual 8, "s" Sedan manual 7, "s" Wagon auto 7

Another interesting thing is that the only Mazda that gets 8 (rather than 7) is one of its lower-level models.

Actually not surprising since the V6 models weigh over 200 lbs. more than the I-4, making it an even more front-biased FWD platform. The hatchback probably weighs a bit more in the rear as well, with the opposite effect.

[WanTing]

i voted for TSX.
but I think you forgot about EVO VIII ;)

[larchmont]

Originally posted by kiteboy
Actually not surprising since the V6 models weigh over 200 lbs. more than the I-4, making it an even more front-biased FWD platform. The hatchback probably weighs a bit more in the rear as well, with the opposite effect.
Makes me wonder why anybody (or almost anybody) would get the V6. I would think that people who want the extra power wouldn't want to sacrifice handling, at least not if they are aware of it and it they think about it. Especially when they're paying an extra $2500, which is just about what it is.


About the Evo, as WanTing said, it deserves to be included, big-time. For the heck of it I looked at what Consumer Guide says (I love that stuff -- I recommend it to everybody, especially the magazine format because of how easy it is to flip back and forth and compare different cars). And check this out.

It gets a 9. Not that many cars get even 8, and fewer get more. Here are the only others with more than 8:

NSX
Audi TT
BMW 330i w sport pkg, 540i, M5, 745i w optional 19" wheels, and Z4
Corvette
Dodge Viper (btw it costs $80K)
Honda S2000
Mazda Miata and RX-8
Mercedes CL500 and SLK32/AMG
Mini (regular or "S") w sport pkg
Nissan 350Z
Porsche 911 and Boxster
Toyota MR2 Spyder

The Evo is in some pretty good company.

Here's the Consumer Guide write-up, which is about all the Lancers including the Evo:

Mainstream models are economy-car competent, with moderate cornering lean and fail-safe front-drive moves. Ralliarts are more agile, responsive, and fun. Evolution offers laser-sharp handling, tenacious AWD grip, but suffers a large turning circle. ABS should be offered on all Lancers, as stopping power and stability are just OK without it.

[Whatchamacallit]

Is the Consumer Guide the same thing as Consumer Reports Buying Guide?


Originally posted by larchmont
TSX: 8 out of 10

Impressively agile on challenging mountain roads, with assuring grip, minimal body lean. Quick, responsive steering adds to the fun. Standard antiskid system enhances dynamic security. Powerful brakes have excellent pedal feel.

Good review but I disagree with the last sentence though. IMHO, TSX brakes are by no means "powerful".

I was washing my car the other day and was shocked to see how small the rear brakes were. :eek:

[TSX 'R' US]

Originally posted by Whatchamacallit
Is the Consumer Guide the same thing as Consumer Reports Buying Guide?




Good review but I disagree with the last sentence though. IMHO, TSX brakes are by no means "powerful".

I was washing my car the other day and was shocked to see how small the rear brakes were. :eek:
At least the rear brakes are disc and not drums :)

[larchmont]

Originally posted by Whatchamacallit
Is the Consumer Guide the same thing as Consumer Reports Buying Guide?

Good review but I disagree with the last sentence though. IMHO, TSX brakes are by no means "powerful".

I was washing my car the other day and was shocked to see how small the rear brakes were. :eek:
No, Consumer Guide is totally separate from Consumer Reports.

Which I think is good, because it means we have an additional, different great source of this kind of info.
Actually I think Consumer Guide is unique. I don't know of any other source that has such a comprehensive standard format, where each car is rated and described in so many categories (I only showed one category up there). It makes it really easy to check out anything about any car, at a glance. Or to compare cars with one another, either overall or on a particular criterion. Anything you want.

The main drawback is that the scores are somewhat counterintuitive -- especially the TOTAL scores, which are extremely counterintuitive. In general, any given number means something better than one would think, especially the total scores. For example, the TSX gets a total of 62 out of 100, which doesn't sound like much --- sounds kind of like a C or a D, right? But actually 62 is an extraordinary score, one of the highest among "near-luxury" cars and higher than most of the comps. It's higher than the BMW 3-series sedans, higher than any of the Mercedes C-class sedans, higher than the IS300 and the Volvo S40 and even the S60. Among the usual comps, the Infiniti G35 is the only one I can think of that's higher.

I agree with Whatcham about the brakes, but I think they're better than I used to. I don't know if it's that they've gotten "broken in" (does that happen with brakes?), or if I'm just not blaming the brakes for what I used to blame them. I think the brakes are very good if not great, and some of what I used to consider deficiencies of the brakes I've decided are more due to the stock tires.

[insman]

I've driven all four, and for my taste (as an old fart), the TSX is miles ahead of the other cars. The Mazda is so damn loud that you'd better buy the premium radio. It drones in the 8 cylinder version so bad that any trip longer than 30 miles would be a problem. The Lexus is simply not a good buy. Less power than the TSX (or it seems to be less) and the handling is good, but not as "secure." The G35 seems to be of another world. I drove both the AWD and regular versions. Cheap interior and the leather looks like it came from an SUV (like my Explorer's leather--vinyl in character). The AWD is nice in the snow --the day I drove it it was snowing--but it doesn't seem as tight. Those rear drive fanatics might like the way the tail goes out on the regular G35, but not me. The TSX is the best production handling car I've owned.

[larchmont]

.....The G35 seems to be of another world. I drove both the AWD and regular versions.......
Since when does the G35 come in AWD??? :donno:

(Does it really?)

[insman]

Since when does the G35 come in AWD??? :donno:

(Does it really?)

Yep, since the first of the year.

[larchmont]

Yep, since the first of the year.
Wow, can't believe I hadn't heard.

To me, the idea of an AWD G35 is almost an oxymoron. I had a "regular" one as a rental earlier this year, and the RWD characteristics seemed to be such a dominant thing about the car that I can't imagine it with any other drive. But maybe that's mostly because I've become such a FWD fan that almost any RWD would hit me right upside the head.

[insman]

Wow, can't believe I hadn't heard.

To me, the idea of an AWD G35 is almost an oxymoron. I had a "regular" one as a rental earlier this year, and the RWD characteristics seemed to be such a dominant thing about the car that I can't imagine it with any other drive. But maybe that's mostly because I've become such a FWD fan that almost any RWD would hit me right upside the head.

It did me, too. I hadn't owned a RWD car since the 90 Mustang and the "thrill" of driving one again just shocked me back into reality. I really can't believe Chrysler is going back to RWD with the 300 and the new Intrepid (as well as the other Mercedes based cars they are putting on the market). The new 300 is totally overpowered in the big motor form and squirrelly as they come. It looks funny to me, too. God forbid some father gives his teenager that car on wet roads. Instant disaster--and poor quality, too.

[SAZABI]

Hee... I don't know why even G35 is listed here.... It just sucks big time when it comes to handling.... pictures coming soon!

[larchmont]

Hee... I don't know why even G35 is listed here.... It just sucks big time when it comes to handling.... pictures coming soon!
I kinda agree, although I think we're gonna sound "biased" :D if we say sux.

The general impression is that the G35's handling is real good, and its reputation for handling is better than TSX's but that's gotta be because the TSX still isn't that well known. When I was driving a G35 for a few days (rented), I couldn't believe anybody would consider it even equal to the TSX. It wasn't bad, but it wasn't as firm and sure. The word that came to mind was "rubbery."

FWIW, reviews and ratings generally put the G35's handling about equal to the TSX's or slightly below (although that's a judgment call because usually there aren't any direct comparisons).

[wariosport]

I just drove the G35 a few weeks ago. The car handles and brakes excellent. However, the interior remindes me of my sisters old Saturn. I can't believe they would go so cheap on the interior. It makes my TSX look like an S500 Mercedes.

[larchmont]

I just drove the G35 a few weeks ago. The car handles and brakes excellent. However, the interior remindes me of my sisters old Saturn. I can't believe they would go so cheap on the interior. It makes my TSX look like an S500 Mercedes.
:D :D :D

I agree about the brakes -- they're great.

Although my view of the TSX braking has risen a lot and I actually think it's quite good, the G35 was distinctly better.