Complaint about a HORRIBLE dealer.

[briny319]

I'm posting this story on all of the Acura sites I belong to.

This post is probably going to be pretty long so I will bold the key parts for those of you who don't care to read all of the details.
This Complaint about Hillside Acura. Located in Bay Shore, NY

I bought my TSX in April 2003 from Rallye Acura. I have had my car serviced by them from that time until June 2004. In June 04 I went with my uncle to buy his tsx. He wanted to buy it from Hillside Acura. While there we were talking to the manager and got to talking about how I have a tsx and don't have it serviced there because they only give loaners to customers who bought from them. So he tells me he will put me in the computer as a customer so I can get a loaner and will even give me a free oil change to try out their service dept. I thought this was really nice and it would be great that I could get a loaner from them since they are 5 miles from my house.

In July of 04 I made an appt to have a 30k mile service with Hillside Acura and to get a loaner car. I get there before 9am and start filling out the loaner car forms when the guy tells me he can't give me a loaner because I am under 25 and there insurance doesn't allow them go give loaners to people under 25. At this point I was getting annoyed because I always get one at Rallye Acura and I view not getting a loaner due to age as age discrimination. So I proceed to tell him that in NY you can't deny someone a rental if they are over 18. So he says ok, I will call enterprise and rent you a car. Enterprise came and picked me up and when they found out I was under 25 they told me "I'm sorry sir, we can't rent you a car today. We need 24 hours notice so that we can check your driving record before hand." Enterprise took my back to Hillside Acura. I told the guy I would wait for the service to be finished if he deducted the cost of what they would have had to pay off for a rental from my service. He said he couldn't do that, but when I said I would take my car to Rallye Acura where I would get my loaner he quickly changed his mind. So I wait around until 11:30am when they are done with my car. The advisor tells me he ordered a replacement leather cover for my drivers seat and it would be in soon (the leather wore to quickly). I take my keys and thank the service advisor for attempting to work with me to make the situation right. As I headed home I kept hearing funny noises coming from my engine. I went home looked under the hood went for another drive. I heard the noise again a few minutes later so I drove back to Hillside Acura. It was now 12:30pm and EVERYONE in the service dept was out for lunch until 1:30pm. So I took my car for a drive as I wait for them to return. During this drive I was able to pin point that the noise started when I kept the engine between 3000 and 3500rpms. 1:30pm rolls around and the service advisor returns from lunch and I explain the problem. He said that's impossible but would go for a ride with me. I showed him when I reached 3000rpms the noise started. He confirmed he certainly heard a problem and we returned to Hillside Acura where a service tech started looking at my car. An hour later at 2:30pm the advisor returns and tells me the previous tech who did my 30k service didn't properly tighten the bolts/screws that hold the cover to the engines air filter and it was rattling under the hood. I said fine and thanked him for correcting this and left.

At this point I am very annoyed but figured I was just having a bad day. Later that same day I look under my hood and notice a lot of antifreeze all over. The reserve tank was down to low. I am assuming someone at hillside didn't tighten it when they replaced the antifreeze as part of my 30k service. I cleaned up some of it but left it on the areas I couldn't reach like the fans.

2 weeks later I get a call from the parts dept at Hillside Acura and they tell me my part is in. I ask if I could wait a few weeks until I need an oil change and they tell me no problem.


6 weeks later I call up for an appt and was told the first appt was in 3 weeks. I make an appt and ask if I can drop off the car at 11am. I was told no because it would take a while to work on the seat so they need it there by 9am.

3 weeks later I go in for my appt. I drop the car off at 8:40am. At 2:30pm I get a call from lojack alerting me my car was moved (I have lojack with early warning and didn't give the dealer by key fob) I get another call around 3pm from Hillside Acura,they need to keep my car overnight. I asked why and was told they didn't get to finish my car. I said no I want my car back today I need it for tomorrow. I asked if they could work until they closed and the service advisor told me he would see what they could get done and would call me back later to tell me what they couldn't get done and when to pick it up. After the call I started to think back to when I called to make my appt and was told the car needs to be there before 9am. I started getting annoyed so I decided to drive over to Hillside Acura to discuss it with them.

When I got there i started discussing things with the advisor. He tells me they didn't have time to work on my seat. I asked what time they started working on the car. He replied he didn't know but it was after 10:30-11 because that was when it was dropped off. I told him it was here before 9am. He told me he didn't want to argue about it because he wasn't 100% sure when it came in. I asked how long they worked on the car. He again didn't have an answer. I told him I wasn't happy with this situation and that when an appt is made mainly for a seat replacement wouldn't that be the first thing you work on? I also explained to him that I wrote a note to the service advisor the car was dropped off with reminding him of my day of hell from the last time I had a service done there and that I hoped this service would be better. I explained that doesn't common sense tell you that when you piss a customer off one time you should make it a point not to piss them off a second time. He explained that people are on vacation and that people who wait for service take priority over drop offs. I said well just let me pay for this oil change and that I am never coming here again. He then listed every other Acura dealer in the area that I could go to if I wasn't happy with them. I paid and then left.

When I reached my car I decided this was complete BS. I spent 30k on a car. Where is my "Total Luxury Care" like it says on the window. So I call American Honda. I tell the guy my whole story and he says he will file a complaint. I tell him fine but I also want to talk to the district manager or a manager from the corporate office. He said I would get a call back within 48hrs.

Today I get a voice mail from a case mgr. at Honda. By the time I got back to her she left for the day so I will call her back tomorrow. Today I also went to Rallye Acura to have them order me a new leather cover for my seat. Later, I open my trunk and here the hinge scraping against something in the trunk. I look and notice that Hillside Acura some clips that hold on the trunk lining and it is just hanging off. The service tech from hillside was in the trunk performing the recall work that involved the tail lights and rear wire harness.

Now I am even more pissed. I bought a car from Hondas "luxury" division If I wanted to get jerked around by a dealer and have them cause even more problems to my car I would have bought a damn KIA.

Well, that is the end of my story for now. I don't recommend this dealer. If I am unsuccessful with my complaints to America Honda I will move on to the BBB and anyone else who will listen.

Any suggestions on who to complain to and how?

[robert_tg]

OK I have entered Hillside Acura into my list of dealers to stay away from.
Along with Devan Acura, Norwalk, CT

So you going back to Rallye , huh ?

[briny319]

Yep, I already went there yesterday (2 days after I left hillside). They are ordering me a new leather seat cover and a heated seat button. Now I just need to ask them if they can fix my trunk lining.

[briny319]

Well I just got a call from a case manager at American Honda. She documented the complaint and spoke with the service manager at Hillside Acura. All he said was he confirmed he spoke with me and that I said I would never set foot in there dealership again. She is going to call Rallye Acura to make sure when I go in for my service that everything is perfect and see if there is anything she can do for me...

She is calling me back next week after my parts come in.

[larchmont]

Looks like you might get some meaningful response and result -- which doesn't mean total confession and rolling heads, of course. As these things go, JUST ABOUT ANYTHING AT ALL will be a meaningful response and result, however partial it might be. And it won't change the fact that they sucked, and I doubt it will make them suck less in the future. But hopefully you'll be able to take at least a little amount of satisfaction from it.

It won't change the fact that Acura's approach to customers, not only in the service departments but also at the dealers, is far from uniformly good; in fact, we've heard all too many stories of how it sucks. My own experience in Acura service has been very good; not as perfect lately as I might have liked (I thought it was in the past), but real good. I've had very good buying experiences twice out of the three places where I've bought from, including at my current dealer.

But taking all the reports into account, the overall situation just isn't up to the level that one would expect of a "luxury" brand. If Acura wants to truly rise to the top in the public's eye, it has work to do. And it would seem that it has to come from above -- like American Honda. Dealers and service departments have to have it made known to them that there are standards they must follow if they are to be allowed to keep being Acura.

That's not asking too much, is it?

[briny319]

Larch - As I mention in the past I have had my car serviced by Rallye Acura who has been great. They always give me a loaner and do this right the first time. But, they are 50 minutes away from me and probably one of the most expensive acura dealers (they have a rallye maybach dealer nextdoor). But I guess you get what you pay for. I want good quality service so I guess I will be driving 50 mins and paying their prices to get my car serviced correctly.

[larchmont]

That's just it -- it varies so much from one Acura place to another. That's been my own experience, and that's what we gather from these sites. I suspect that the bad experiences are somewhat overrepresented in what we see on these sites, because people are less motivated to post about positive things. But however you slice it, the negative experiences are far too many. And yes indeed, it varies according to the particular place.

And that's where you'd think the corporate headquarters might want to take more of an interest in this, because the rotten apples are holding back the whole barrel.

[robert_tg]

Larch, where you got your TSX and where you taking it for service ?

[robert_tg]

The advisor tells me he ordered a replacement leather cover for my drivers seat and it would be in soon (the leather wore to quickly).

Briny I am curious about this.
I'd love to get something like this done down the road.
So this makes your seat(s) look brand-new huh ?

More detail about this plz - what was so bad about your seat cover ? Just driver seat or more ?

[HondaMan]

Thanks for the heads up for the NY people.

For the record my Acura buying experience was excellent and I got very good service for my recent 1st oil change. So, I have nothing but positive things to say so far. BTW, that's Baranco Acura in Morrow, GA.

[johnej]

I to have nothing but good things to say about MacChurchill Acura in Ftw

[ChinchillaX]

My service experience with several Acura dealers have been subpar to down right terrible! McGrath Acura of Morton Grove, Woodfield Acura, and Frank Leta Acura in St. Louis both are terrible. Frank Leta Acura scratched my car's passenger side mirror driving into the service area to get my TSX an oil change. I even saw this happen! They said it wasn't their fault. http://www2.oanda.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

I filed a complaint with them. A week later they sent me a letter of apology, a box of cookies, and a voucher for free maintenance/service....but I will not be going to them again.

[ChinchillaX]

I say contact the BBB, though I don't know if they can do much. If American Honda documented the conversation, request them forward to the BBB, they may need some proof/reasons for the complaint. As for Enterprise, I don't understand how they want to see driving records and such. I never had problems getting a car from them and I am only 23. It may be just that location.

[briny319]

Briny I am curious about this.
I'd love to get something like this done down the road.
So this makes your seat(s) look brand-new huh ?

More detail about this plz - what was so bad about your seat cover ? Just driver seat or more ?

I haven't actually seen it BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE TIME TO INSTALL IT!!!! But a friend of mine who is a honda tech tells me the seat itself w/ the power motor is seperate from the leather part.So they are just replacing the leather part. I believe the cost to buy it would be a few hundred.

My problem with it was the vinyl part that you go over as you go in and out is exteremly worn. As if the car was 5+yrs old. My car might have a lot of miles but those are from road trips not from getting in and out hundreds of times. It started looking worn last yr when I reached 15k but now at 37k its extremely worn. I was told by Rallye Acura it technically isn't covered under warranty because it is a wear item. But that honda does cover it under warranty once...

[briny319]

Briny I am curious about this.
I'd love to get something like this done down the road.
So this makes your seat(s) look brand-new huh ?

More detail about this plz - what was so bad about your seat cover ? Just driver seat or more ?

It was just the drivers seat. The passanger seat is worn but not that bad. Yes it will make it look brand new.


How does your seat look.

[larchmont]

Larch, where you got your TSX and where you taking it for service ?
Acura of Westchester, which is located (where else) :D in Larchmont.

My experience there has been very good.

[robert_tg]

--snip--My problem with it was the vinyl part that you go over as you go in and out is exteremly worn. As if the car was 5+yrs old. My car might have a lot of miles but those are from road trips not from getting in and out hundreds of times. It started looking worn last yr when I reached 15k but now at 37k its extremely worn. I was told by Rallye Acura it technically isn't covered under warranty because it is a wear item. But that honda does cover it under warranty once...

Xactly. you see you were actually lucky that the dealer offered to replace that.
At 37K...regardless of HOW you drive the car...it is quite used.
If there is one interior area that shows a cars wear & usage it's that area (called side-bolster) of the seat (pretty sure it's actually leather).

it's definitely "a wear item".
I seriously wonder how Hillside was gonna get reimbursed for doing that job.

GM of my dealer told me this: "Honda is VERY strict, VERY precise on what dealer can do & get reimbursed for warranty works"

[briny319]

Xactly. you see you were actually lucky that the dealer offered to replace that.
At 37K...regardless of HOW you drive the car...it is quite used.
If there is one interior area that shows a cars wear & usage it's that area (called side-bolster) of the seat (pretty sure it's actually leather).

it's definitely "a wear item".
I seriously wonder how Hillside was gonna get reimbursed for doing that job.

GM of my dealer told me this: "Honda is VERY strict, VERY precise on what dealer can do & get reimbursed for warranty works"

They way I look at it is I was lucky that American Honda offered to replace the leather. The dealer needs approval from honda before doing warranty work. Now if Hillside had said Honda won't replace it I would take it up with Honda. But the issue wasn't what they were replacing it was the poor service in general.

[Thorn2004]

I don't think the Honda dealers here in Australia are that bad, but I am sure there are still dodgy ones around. My dealer is ok, I mean my service woman seems to be ok and is nice enough, although I have noticed a problem with my tint which I will be getting adressed at my 10,000k service. It appears there is a fine scratch appearing on my driver and passenger side windows on the inside which I noticed after having the front windows down and putting them back up! The scratch is getting worse and goes down the full length of the windows like something is scraping against the tint when the window is lowered and raised! Anyone have any idea what could be causing the scratch? I raised this issue at the 1K service and my dealer tried telling me that it is join mark in the tint... I mean what a load of BS, for starters the scratch is getting worse and it has actually seperated into 2 scratches, so either the seam is moving or there is something on the door trim which is scratching my tint on my windows! I am thinking that they just didn't want to fork out the $'s to retint the front windows, and if they don't find the cause then it will just do it again anyhow !

[robert_tg]

--snip--
Now if Hillside had said Honda won't replace it I would take it up with Honda. But the issue wasn't what they were replacing it was the poor service in general.

Woa, man I think you're really pushing it.
It sounds to me it's like you're bitching to a shoe maker company
after wearing the shoes for a year about the deep creases in the middle of the shoe top. or complaining to tire makers about threads wearing thin.

[briny319]

Woa, man I think you're really pushing it.
It sounds to me it's like you're bitching to a shoe maker company
after wearing the shoes for a year about the deep creases in the middle of the shoe top. or complaining to tire makers about threads wearing thin.

It all depends on the time frame... If the tire tread is wearing thin with less than 20k miles on them, then that would be unacceptable. In fact my tires are wearing thin and I will need new ones but it is reasonable to need tires at around 40k miles. It isn't reasonable for my seat in my (2004 w/ 37k miles) to look worse than the seat in my cousins tl (1996 /160k miles). The problem is that honda uses cheap vinyl which apparently wears out quickly. The leather parts on that seat still looks almost new.

[larchmont]

It all depends on the time frame... If the tire tread is wearing thin with less than 20k miles on them, then that would be unacceptable. In fact my tires are wearing thin and I will need new ones but it is reasonable to need tires at around 40k miles. It isn't reasonable for my seat in my (2004 w/ 37k miles) to look worse than the seat in my cousins tl (1996 /160k miles). The problem is that honda uses cheap vinyl which apparently wears out quickly. The leather parts on that seat still looks almost new.
That's right.

And this is good to know. AFAIK briny is the first one to have that many miles on the TSX, and if his experience turns out to be typical, I think this will have been the first we've heard it.

Will be "interesting" to see if this will be most people's experience with the vinyl. Of course I hope not -- not only for the sake of my own car, but also because as a Honda/Acura fan, I hope the company turns out to be not so bad on this.

The part about the tires is of interest also. Yes indeed, 40K is just about when we usually expect to need new tires, but we didn't really know.

[robert_tg]

--SNIP-- The problem is that honda uses cheap vinyl which apparently wears out quickly. The leather parts on that seat still looks almost new.

What PROOF do you have that is vinyl ? pray tell.
I've read a lot of posting on this subject and the conclusion I got was that everything you butt and you back touches is leather.

[briny319]

What PROOF do you have that is vinyl ? pray tell.
I've read a lot of posting on this subject and the conclusion I got was that everything you butt and you back touches is leather.

A number of things... I've read a lot of posts on the subject as well. Your butt and back touch the perforated leather. The sides of your legs and the sides of your arms touch the vinyl.

Here is your "proof".
1. The dealer told me it was Pleather (aka vinyl).

2. Only what is perforated is leather, everything else is vinyl.

3. It feels like plastic.

4. The non perforated parts of the seats feel exactly like the vinyl part on the doors (the non perforated fake leather looking stuff).

5. My mom drives a new accord and the center part of her seats are leather and the sides feel completely different (plastic). The TSX has the same seat. We have different leather but the same parts that are vinyl/pleather.

6. I've had my TSX for almost 18 months, driven lots of miles, and spent countless hours driving and cleaning my car. So I think I would know...

[Thorn2004]

This is why I am happy that my Euro has the option of cloth seats :) My Euro has black cloth seats which while will probably wear eventually, have been pretty good so far and seem pretty hardy!

[larchmont]

A number of things... I've read a lot of posts on the subject as well. Your butt and back touch the perforated leather. The sides of your legs and the sides of your arms touch the vinyl.

Here is your "proof".
1. The dealer told me it was Pleather (aka vinyl).

2. Only what is perforated is leather, everything else is vinyl.

3. It feels like plastic.

4. The non perforated parts of the seats feel exactly like the vinyl part on the doors (the non perforated fake leather looking stuff).

5. My mom drives a new accord and the center part of her seats are leather and the sides feel completely different (plastic). The TSX has the same seat. We have different leather but the same parts that are vinyl/pleather.

6. I've had my TSX for almost 18 months, driven lots of miles, and spent countless hours driving and cleaning my car. So I think I would know...
Great answer from briny. I don't think you can do any better than that.

[briny319]

Great answer from briny. I don't think you can do any better than that.


Thanks, Larch

[robert_tg]

A number of things... I've read a lot of posts on the subject as well. Your butt and back touch the perforated leather. The sides of your legs and the sides of your arms touch the vinyl.

Here is your "proof".
1. The dealer told me it was Pleather (aka vinyl).
2. Only what is perforated is leather, everything else is vinyl.
3. It feels like plastic.
4. The non perforated parts of the seats feel exactly like the vinyl part on the doors (the non perforated fake leather looking stuff).
5. My mom drives a new accord and the center part of her seats are leather and the sides feel completely different (plastic). The TSX has the same seat. We have different leather but the same parts that are vinyl/pleather.
6. I've had my TSX for almost 18 months, driven lots of miles, and spent countless hours driving and cleaning my car. So I think I would know...

First: You have a VERY liberal definition of the word "SAME"

Sorry but I am still not convinced because:
1) Seriously - You believe dealer ???!!! they CAN be wrong about things you know that right ?
2) That's what the "debate" is about.
3) "feelings" don't count - it's the definition of subjectiveness.
4) see above
5) Again "feeling" here.
That's like comparing green apple to fuji apple - all apples but NOT THE SAME, are they ?
The TSX has the same seat.
SAME as in IDENTICAL ?
6) Again subjectiveness at play here.

Don't read me wrong I am not criticising you or having a debate with you.
But what you listed above just not good enough proof.
I said elsewhere before - the best proof is how FBI would prove it - scientifically - exam a swab under microscope - no guesses, feelings there - totally objective.

So at this point I still am not sure it's genuine leather or something else.

[pocketkiller]

I haven't actually seen it BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE TIME TO INSTALL IT!!!! But a friend of mine who is a honda tech tells me the seat itself w/ the power motor is seperate from the leather part.So they are just replacing the leather part. I believe the cost to buy it would be a few hundred.

My problem with it was the vinyl part that you go over as you go in and out is exteremly worn. As if the car was 5+yrs old. My car might have a lot of miles but those are from road trips not from getting in and out hundreds of times. It started looking worn last yr when I reached 15k but now at 37k its extremely worn. I was told by Rallye Acura it technically isn't covered under warranty because it is a wear item. But that honda does cover it under warranty once...

Briny do you have any pictures of this worn part of the seat? I think I have the same problem, and I will describe it like this. Basically if you are sitting in the driver seat, it is the left side of the bottom seat cushion...it has all these lines and folds in it.

[robert_tg]

Briny do you have any pictures of this worn part of the seat? I think I have the same problem, and I will describe it like this. Basically if you are sitting in the driver seat, it is the left side of the bottom seat cushion...it has all these lines and folds in it.

left side bolster

[pocketkiller]

left bolster ehhh...well mine left bolster is just dandy. that really sux to get VINYL

[robert_tg]

l-snip- that really sux to get VINYL

the jury is STILL out on that, to me.

[pocketkiller]

I kind of agree with you on that. I can totally tell that the sides of the seats and the seat backs are vinyl. They just feel totally different. But I don't believe the front of the seats are vinyl (the non-perforated parts in question)...they feel different then the seat sides and backs.

[robert_tg]

I kind of agree with you on that. I can totally tell that the sides of the seats and the seat backs are vinyl. They just feel totally different. But I don't believe the front of the seats are vinyl (the non-perforated parts in question)...they feel different then the seat sides and backs.

maybe a "higher-grade" vinyl-like material fancier than the material used on the sides/backs ??? :donno:
Ever thought about that ? ???

[pocketkiller]

No never thought about that. It feels like the regular perforated leather.

[briny319]

Briny do you have any pictures of this worn part of the seat? I think I have the same problem, and I will describe it like this. Basically if you are sitting in the driver seat, it is the left side of the bottom seat cushion...it has all these lines and folds in it.
Yep that's the problem. My passange seat also has it but the driver seat is 10x worse.

[briny319]

First: You have a VERY liberal definition of the word "SAME"

Sorry but I am still not convinced because:
1) Seriously - You believe dealer ???!!! they CAN be wrong about things you know that right ?
2) That's what the "debate" is about.
3) "feelings" don't count - it's the definition of subjectiveness.
4) see above
5) Again "feeling" here.
That's like comparing green apple to fuji apple - all apples but NOT THE SAME, are they ?

SAME as in IDENTICAL ?
6) Again subjectiveness at play here.

Don't read me wrong I am not criticising you or having a debate with you.
But what you listed above just not good enough proof.
I said elsewhere before - the best proof is how FBI would prove it - scientifically - exam a swab under microscope - no guesses, feelings there - totally objective.

So at this point I still am not sure it's genuine leather or something else.

Robert, where have you been for the past week? I thought this thread was dead.
1. Of course a dealer could be wrong, however it was just another peice of proof that it is vinyl.
2. According to acura.com "The seating surfaces of the firm sport seats are upholstered in soft yet durable leather that's perforated for ventilation. "http://acura.com/models/model_comfort_seating.asp?module=tsx
So if the seat has "leather that's perforated". What does that mean the non perforated part is??? Could it be Metal??? Could it be Cloth??? Could it be Wood??? NO it is FAKE leather. Aka Pleather. Aka VINYL!!! Read between the lines from acura's statement. Your right it might not be vinyl. But it's certainly not leather. If it was leather acura wouldn't have said that the leather is perforated. Since vinyl is what is used to make fake leather it is obviously what the non perforated parts are.
3. By feeling you can't tell what material it is but you can tell that is feels very different from the perforated leather.
4. See above.
5. See above.
6. I'd also like to add that in addition to owning my TSX for almost 18 months, driving lots of miles, and spenting countless hours driving and cleaning my car. I have spent over 18 months, countless hours on TSX forums, and 6 months researching the TL and TSX prior to my purchase. So I REALLY think I would know...

[briny319]

maybe a "higher-grade" vinyl-like material fancier than the material used on the sides/backs ??? :donno:
Ever thought about that ? ???

You took the words right our of my mouth.

[briny319]

Have you checked other forums about this topic??? It has been the topic of discussion many times on other sites. And the conclusion has always been:
The TSX has a "leather trimmed" interior.

"All the perforated parts are real leather. So the middle of the seats....small part of doors...steering wheel wrap, shift knob wrap. All real leather.

The rest of the seats ... (the non-perforated part) ...sides...headrest, back...are not real leather. They are leatherette...aka...vynol."

Quoted from:
fdl
Mega Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Toronto
Posts: 7,126

Another person who has had their TSX for a long time and obviously spends a lot of time on tsx forums. So I think he should know...

[briny319]

2) That's what the "debate" is about.

Don't read me wrong I am not criticising you or having a debate with you.



At the begining of your post you said "That's what the "debate" is about."

Then towards the end of your post you said "Don't read me wrong I am not criticising you or having a debate with you."

Well which is it?

While I haven't give you 100% solid proof. But I have given you pieces of evidence that should be more than enough to assume the non perforated parts are leather.

What "proof" do you have for me that the non perforated parts are leather??? Do you have any quote from Acura?
Have you done any "feel" testing on this yourself, if so what were the results?
Have you asked anyone at Acura Client Services or an Acura Dealer?
How long have you had your TSX and how much time have you spent learning about it?

[robert_tg]

briny, I have NO proof for you for I do not believe in the "proofs" you listed.

you know my position on this right ?

right in the middle == don't know if it's leather, don't know if it is not.
Just "Do NOT Know".

Yes, like I said I have read a lot about this on this and other forum. and I have posted similar messages & gotten responses. But those don't remove my doubt.
It's just me. You can believe dealer, Honda literature, feeling,...I can not.

I am just anal and I have my reasons to be.
(Japan is the undisputed world leader in applying material science to the art of imitation and I'm not talking about imitation crabmeat)

I am seriously toying with the idea of doing this scientifically
like locating a wrecked TSX & getting hold of some swab samples and
putting it under microscope.

[briny319]

How can you be right in the middle? While you can't be 100% sure its vinyl but due to all of the comments from others and pieces of evidence I have provided you should be able to come to the conclusion that is probably is vinyl.

[briny319]

You still didn't answer my question about the debate. Is this or isn't this a debate?

I think I'll call American Honda to obtain more evidence for my case.



I'm really glad I'm not in a jury room with you...

[pocketkiller]

Have you checked other forums about this topic??? It has been the topic of discussion many times on other sites. And the conclusion has always been:
The TSX has a "leather trimmed" interior.

"All the perforated parts are real leather. So the middle of the seats....small part of doors...steering wheel wrap, shift knob wrap. All real leather.

The rest of the seats ... (the non-perforated part) ...sides...headrest, back...are not real leather. They are leatherette...aka...vynol."

Quoted from:
fdl
Mega Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Toronto
Posts: 7,126

Another person who has had their TSX for a long time and obviously spends a lot of time on tsx forums. So I think he should know...

So if only the perforated parts are leather, then what about the non-perforated leather steering wheel ? Is the rest of the steering wheel not leather? What about the automatic transmission shifter, well its only half perforated, so I guess the other part is not real leather? This is only your opinion and nothing else. Yes Acura indicates the interior is leather "trimmed", but we don't know which parts are leather. I know for a fact that the seat sides and backs are not leather, because they are vinyl. But you cannot be sure about the front of the seats.

[robert_tg]

You still didn't answer my question about the debate. Is this or isn't this a debate?

I think I'll call American Honda to obtain more evidence for my case.
I'm really glad I'm not in a jury room with you...

Briny, YES it is a debate - of course - there are 2 different camps on this topic.

But like I said before I was NOT (did not want to) debating you cos I am NOT in your opposite camp. I think I simply pointed out some "weakness", if you will, of your seemingly deep convictions.

I simply refuse to go into either camp simply because of he-said, she-said, dealer-said, Honda-literature-said, feeling......etc.
If I were computer my output for this would be: INSUFFICIENT DATA.

[briny319]

Briny, YES it is a debate - of course - there are 2 different camps on this topic.

But like I said before I was NOT (did not want to) debating you cos I am NOT in your opposite camp. I think I simply pointed out some "weakness", if you will, of your seemingly deep convictions.

I simply refuse to go into either camp simply because of he-said, she-said, dealer-said, Honda-literature-said, feeling......etc.
If I were computer my output for this would be: INSUFFICIENT DATA.

Yes if you were a computer your output would be insufficient data. But you are not a computer. As a human you should be able to use common sense and weigh the evidence to come to the conclusion that the non perforated parts are "almost certainly" fake leather. Considering that the "other" camp has no evidence that the non perforated parts are leather and that "my" camp has statements, quotes, and other evidence to prove my point.

At this time I would like to submit my 8th piece of evidence. My call to American Honda.

8. I called Honda to ask them about the seats. He said the parts the body touches are perforated leather. He said the other parts of the seat are leatherette or synthesized leather. I couldn't get him to admit they aren't vinyl but only to say the non perforated parts are leatherette or synthesized leather.

And the definition from dictionary.com is:
leath•er•ette ( P ) Pronunciation Key (lth-rt)
n.
Imitation leather.

leatherette
n : fabric made to look like leather [syn: imitation leather]


I also asked about steering wheel and shift knob. Once again the parts that you touch are perforated leather the other parts are not. So if you look at the steering wheel you will see the sides are perforated and the top and bottom is not. This might be because the correct position of the hands on the wheel are on the sides not the top and bottom. As for the shift knob the top and front is perforated leather and the back of it is not.

While I concede that the non perforated parts might not be vinyl. They certainly aren't leather. As far as I am concerned it is my opinion that it is vinyl but it is a fact* that it isn't leather. If it's vinyl I don't know what else it could be since vinyl is commonly used to create fake leather.


Definition of a fact:
fact ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fkt)
n.
Knowledge or information based on real occurrences: an account based on fact; a blur of fact and fancy.
2c. Something believed to be true or real.

[pocketkiller]

I don't believe that the entire steering wheel is not leather wrapped, or the entire shift knob is not leather. That seems really cheap by Acura. Even my Sentra had leather covered steering wheel and gear shift knob. Also your body does touch the front sides of the seat ie bolsters, even though they are not perferated...therefore your honda contact was innacurate, inconsistent and intelligible.

[robert_tg]

OK I'm leaning to your side BRINY.
It seems this person at AHM you spoke to knew what he's talking about.

BUT, OTH I will bet my next paycheck that his knowledge is based on what he read in the same publications we read.
And no, I can not put full trust on those public literature.

[briny319]

I don't believe that the entire steering wheel is not leather wrapped, or the entire shift knob is not leather. That seems really cheap by Acura. Even my Sentra had leather covered steering wheel and gear shift knob. Also your body does touch the front sides of the seat ie bolsters, even though they are not perferated...therefore your honda contact was innacurate, inconsistent and intelligible.

I'm not going to debate the steering wheel or shift knob because I don't know. The only evidence that points to the fact that it might not be leather is my conversation with a american honda. I haven't looked at/felt or researched the matter in detail so I agree the jury is out on the issue of steering wheel and shift knob.

However, my conversation with honda was only one peice of many things that indicate the non perforated parts aren't leather.

[briny319]

OK I'm leaning to your side BRINY.
It seems this person at AHM you spoke to knew what he's talking about.

BUT, OTH I will bet my next paycheck that his knowledge is based on what he read in the same publications we read.
And no, I can not put full trust on those public literature.
His knowledge probably is based on the same publications. But it is the Manufactures publications so I think they should know. Regardless of the convo with honda. While none of my evidence is conclusive, it should be enough for you to conclude the non perforated parts probably aren't leather. I am +90% sure the non perforated parts are not leather because of the many pieces of evidence that indicates it's not leather.

But the only piece of evidence I have heard to support the non perforated parts being leather is according to honda the parts the body touches are leather. Since the body partially does touch the non perforated parts (only a small part of the side of the body) it leaves me with the less than 10% of uncertainty.

[larchmont]

I've been quite amused at this thread, because it's the same kind of obsessive analysis of a relatively small and basically-solved question that I'm often guilty of.

RTG, it's been pretty clear for a long time that what briny has been saying is true -- not mainly from this thread, but (as briny noted) from other stuff that's been said on various sites. I don't see why you've been so skeptical about it.

I also don't see what's the big deal. When I got the TSX, I basically assumed that the seats were all-leather, but when I found out they weren't, it didn't seem to matter so much, because:

(1) The seats were great anyway.
(2) I wouldn't have been able to tell the difference myself.
(3) The vinyl or pleather (or whatever tf it is) is indeed of high quality, from anything we've been able to ascertain.
(4) Many people think it's superior to real leather for this purpose.

One of the cars that I considered was the Lexus 300 (yes, it was the 300 at the time). I imagine the seats were all leather -- I mean they better be, because the interior smelled like a wet horse. But I couldn't care less -- I didn't like the seat as much as the Acura seats, and anyway it wasn't my kind of car.

Larchmont, who still does like obsessive analysis.

[pocketkiller]

I don't think its obsessive analysis, I think it's a fine debate. There really has been no truth to support either side. The only evidence is circumstantial heresey.


While I agree with your ennumerated reasoning larch of the quality of the seats, I would like to ascertain the correct knowledge about my car. I could really care less if the entire seats were vinyl. I still like them, and they feel great.

I think the only way to get the truth would be through one of several ways:

1) Determine who manufactured the seats, was it Honda, or was it outsourced?
2) Deterimine what materials were used on the interior and what total percentage does each material comprise? And where are these materials located throughout the cabin?

[robert_tg]

Larch, no big deal for me either --- really.
I just think this is a discussion to keep thing alive round here.
Discussion btw "doubter", that is me, and "beliver" briny.

--snip--
RTG, it's been pretty clear for a long time that what briny has been saying is true -- not mainly from this thread, but (as briny noted) from other stuff that's been said on various sites. I don't see why you've been so skeptical about it.
--snip--


See, that's MY problem - 15 years ago, I'd most likely be satisfied with that ---
guesses, feelings, opinions, he-said, she-said, broshure-said --- I need more than that now to believe.

--snip--
The only evidence is circumstantial heresey.----snip--


Xactly.
There is nothing forensic/scientific in the "believer" camp
to support its conviction.

[robert_tg]

so BRINY is your seat done or what ???
I am wondering if you can get hold of the old pieces.
And appreciate if send me a small sample.

[pocketkiller]

hahaha :woot:

[briny319]

so BRINY is your seat done or what ???
I am wondering if you can get hold of the old pieces.
And appreciate if send me a small sample.

Robert - No my seat is still not done. Due to the horrible service at Hillside Acura I had to go to Rallye Acura and have them look at the seat. They called me last week to tell my the seat cover is in and I have an appointment for next week.

I'll ask about the old one, but I doubt they wil let me have it.

[robert_tg]

heh heh if you can get hold of a swap sample, I think I found the EXPERT who can settle this "debate" once for all.

Hardcore Leather Expert (http://www.leatherusa.org/Home.htm)

[pocketkiller]

heh heh if you can get hold of a swap sample, I think I found the EXPERT who can settle this "debate" once for all.

Hardcore Leather Expert (http://www.leatherusa.org/Home.htm)

from your hyperlink

The Leather Research Laboratory serves tanneries, leather product manufacturers, retailers, and all other related businesses. Unfortunately, we do not possess the resources to assist private consumers.

[Peppy11769]

I'm posting this story on all of the Acura sites I belong to.

This post is probably going to be pretty long so I will bold the key parts for those of you who don't care to read all of the details.
This Complaint about Hillside Acura. Located in Bay Shore, NY

I bought my TSX in April 2003 from Rallye Acura. I have had my car serviced by them from that time until June 2004. In June 04 I went with my uncle to buy his tsx. He wanted to buy it from Hillside Acura. While there we were talking to the manager and got to talking about how I have a tsx and don't have it serviced there because they only give loaners to customers who bought from them. So he tells me he will put me in the computer as a customer so I can get a loaner and will even give me a free oil change to try out their service dept. I thought this was really nice and it would be great that I could get a loaner from them since they are 5 miles from my house.

In July of 04 I made an appt to have a 30k mile service with Hillside Acura and to get a loaner car. I get there before 9am and start filling out the loaner car forms when the guy tells me he can't give me a loaner because I am under 25 and there insurance doesn't allow them go give loaners to people under 25. At this point I was getting annoyed because I always get one at Rallye Acura and I view not getting a loaner due to age as age discrimination. So I proceed to tell him that in NY you can't deny someone a rental if they are over 18. So he says ok, I will call enterprise and rent you a car. Enterprise came and picked me up and when they found out I was under 25 they told me "I'm sorry sir, we can't rent you a car today. We need 24 hours notice so that we can check your driving record before hand." Enterprise took my back to Hillside Acura. I told the guy I would wait for the service to be finished if he deducted the cost of what they would have had to pay off for a rental from my service. He said he couldn't do that, but when I said I would take my car to Rallye Acura where I would get my loaner he quickly changed his mind. So I wait around until 11:30am when they are done with my car. The advisor tells me he ordered a replacement leather cover for my drivers seat and it would be in soon (the leather wore to quickly). I take my keys and thank the service advisor for attempting to work with me to make the situation right. As I headed home I kept hearing funny noises coming from my engine. I went home looked under the hood went for another drive. I heard the noise again a few minutes later so I drove back to Hillside Acura. It was now 12:30pm and EVERYONE in the service dept was out for lunch until 1:30pm. So I took my car for a drive as I wait for them to return. During this drive I was able to pin point that the noise started when I kept the engine between 3000 and 3500rpms. 1:30pm rolls around and the service advisor returns from lunch and I explain the problem. He said that's impossible but would go for a ride with me. I showed him when I reached 3000rpms the noise started. He confirmed he certainly heard a problem and we returned to Hillside Acura where a service tech started looking at my car. An hour later at 2:30pm the advisor returns and tells me the previous tech who did my 30k service didn't properly tighten the bolts/screws that hold the cover to the engines air filter and it was rattling under the hood. I said fine and thanked him for correcting this and left.

At this point I am very annoyed but figured I was just having a bad day. Later that same day I look under my hood and notice a lot of antifreeze all over. The reserve tank was down to low. I am assuming someone at hillside didn't tighten it when they replaced the antifreeze as part of my 30k service. I cleaned up some of it but left it on the areas I couldn't reach like the fans.

2 weeks later I get a call from the parts dept at Hillside Acura and they tell me my part is in. I ask if I could wait a few weeks until I need an oil change and they tell me no problem.


6 weeks later I call up for an appt and was told the first appt was in 3 weeks. I make an appt and ask if I can drop off the car at 11am. I was told no because it would take a while to work on the seat so they need it there by 9am.

3 weeks later I go in for my appt. I drop the car off at 8:40am. At 2:30pm I get a call from lojack alerting me my car was moved (I have lojack with early warning and didn't give the dealer by key fob) I get another call around 3pm from Hillside Acura,they need to keep my car overnight. I asked why and was told they didn't get to finish my car. I said no I want my car back today I need it for tomorrow. I asked if they could work until they closed and the service advisor told me he would see what they could get done and would call me back later to tell me what they couldn't get done and when to pick it up. After the call I started to think back to when I called to make my appt and was told the car needs to be there before 9am. I started getting annoyed so I decided to drive over to Hillside Acura to discuss it with them.

When I got there i started discussing things with the advisor. He tells me they didn't have time to work on my seat. I asked what time they started working on the car. He replied he didn't know but it was after 10:30-11 because that was when it was dropped off. I told him it was here before 9am. He told me he didn't want to argue about it because he wasn't 100% sure when it came in. I asked how long they worked on the car. He again didn't have an answer. I told him I wasn't happy with this situation and that when an appt is made mainly for a seat replacement wouldn't that be the first thing you work on? I also explained to him that I wrote a note to the service advisor the car was dropped off with reminding him of my day of hell from the last time I had a service done there and that I hoped this service would be better. I explained that doesn't common sense tell you that when you piss a customer off one time you should make it a point not to piss them off a second time. He explained that people are on vacation and that people who wait for service take priority over drop offs. I said well just let me pay for this oil change and that I am never coming here again. He then listed every other Acura dealer in the area that I could go to if I wasn't happy with them. I paid and then left.

When I reached my car I decided this was complete BS. I spent 30k on a car. Where is my "Total Luxury Care" like it says on the window. So I call American Honda. I tell the guy my whole story and he says he will file a complaint. I tell him fine but I also want to talk to the district manager or a manager from the corporate office. He said I would get a call back within 48hrs.

Today I get a voice mail from a case mgr. at Honda. By the time I got back to her she left for the day so I will call her back tomorrow. Today I also went to Rallye Acura to have them order me a new leather cover for my seat. Later, I open my trunk and here the hinge scraping against something in the trunk. I look and notice that Hillside Acura some clips that hold on the trunk lining and it is just hanging off. The service tech from hillside was in the trunk performing the recall work that involved the tail lights and rear wire harness.

Now I am even more pissed. I bought a car from Hondas "luxury" division If I wanted to get jerked around by a dealer and have them cause even more problems to my car I would have bought a damn KIA.

Well, that is the end of my story for now. I don't recommend this dealer. If I am unsuccessful with my complaints to America Honda I will move on to the BBB and anyone else who will listen.

Any suggestions on who to complain to and how?
I used to work at Hillside Acura. I left because of how they handle their customers and the type of work the techs do. I would not recommend them. Most of the advisor do not write proper verbage on the back of the repair order as required by law and Acura. The manager Dominic Bartone is an absolute idiot who is most of the time on a power trip. I worked there only for one an half months and left due to the way they do business. I would recommend definitely Ralleye Acura in Roslyn or Smithtown Acura. In Brooklyn there is a gentleman Marcus Bennett for Plaza Automall who is awesome. He is a true gentleman and is very very respectful..

[robert_tg]

welcome peppy :wavey:
so you a tech there ?

[tzb]

if you live in the cleveland/akron, ohio area, do not go to motorcars acura. i had a horrible shopping and negotiating session there that went nowhere. basically, they tried to give me $2000 less for my trade than it is worth and would not budge on the amount AT ALL and they also lied about the availability of the tsx i was looking for. i found out about the lying when, two days later, i went to another dealership and they actually showed me the list of available cars with the options i want. beyond this, the salesman questioned the accuracy of kelley blue book, made us wait over an hour to come up with their lame trade in amount and had us there for nearly four hours! to top it off the sales manager came out to talk to us and totally insulted us by basically telling us that our time was worth no more than his (at which point i reminded him that the difference was that he was getting paid while he sat there and we were not). can you believe the nerve of this guy? unreal. then he started complaining about how they have to pay the bills for keeping the dealership going and that that is what dealer holdback covered...and so on. total whining b.s. it was totally offensive. they are so arrogant and look down on customers unbelievably. big time losers... :jeffy:

on the flipside, i had a great experience at acura of cleveland :thumbsup: . not only did they give me full trade in value for my car, but also gave me a great price on the new car and didn't put all kinds of cheesy, unnecessary drama into the negotiation process like motorcars did. it was like jogging after you've removed ankle weights (i.e. much easier, friendlier and more professional than motorcars).

[netoperek]

I used to work at Hillside Acura. I left because of how they handle their customers and the type of work the techs do. I would not recommend them. Most of the advisor do not write proper verbage on the back of the repair order as required by law and Acura. The manager Dominic Bartone is an absolute idiot who is most of the time on a power trip. I worked there only for one an half months and left due to the way they do business. I would recommend definitely Ralleye Acura in Roslyn or Smithtown Acura. In Brooklyn there is a gentleman Marcus Bennett for Plaza Automall who is awesome. He is a true gentleman and is very very respectful..

I have to Agree, Dealer in Brooklyn is really good, and the service is good too.

[larchmont]

I have to Agree, Dealer in Brooklyn is really good, and the service is good too.
Hey, np -- good to see you! We've been missing you!!!
Hope things have been good.....

[Caphaddock]

Shopped all around for my TSX and used something through my Credit Union to get competitive prices. Was given what I thought was a nice deal by a place called Paragon Acura. Needless to say, I should have done my research first. I arrived at the dealership in my 01' Accord EX which was in perfect condition. My fifth Honda and like all of them had been kept in perfect condition. All service work had been done through the Honda dealer, etc. Anyway, the salesman takes my car and disappears for an inordinate amount of time; my son reports at least an hour but maybe he was exagerrating. The salesman comes back and attempts to low-ball me on the trade-in value. He is offering 7,500 for a vehicle that I know from Galves, Kelly, etc is worth at least $10K. The only flaw on the car was a slight scratch on the underside bumper. I had made it clear to him that I was merely "considering" trading in but might just sell the car on my own. Well, after I sign the paperwork for the TSX w/Navi at a sweet $27,800 deal, I leave the dealership with my son remaining non-commital about the trade-in. The salesman is very demanding claiming that I MUST decide now. I inform him that I had arranged my own financing and that I would not be pushed to do anything. I was not in NEED of a new car, rather I just was very impressed by the TSX and wanted to step up from the Accords which I thought were sort of boring this year.

We leave the dealership and guess what happens on the ride home? My transmission mysteriously dies. Never had my Accord given me a problem! No symptoms beforehand or any other problems with this car in almost five years. But suddenly after it is "inspected" by Paragon the tranny is shot. Here I am on the side of the road on a Sunday, with my son tagging along trying to figure out what to do next. I am really angry and quite suspicious. I call the salesman from the side of the road and he denies that they even looked under the hood. This is an obvious lie and then he transfers me to some service guy who claims that just because the engine light is on does not mean the transmission is shot. I am pumping mad. Thus, I explain how the engine is racing, etc. and he just basically blows me off and tells me to call back tomorrow.
Luckily, I contacted Honda and they were great about the whole thing -of course! As you may all know the tranny was still covered under a recall and the service guy explained to me their would be no way to know if anything foul had been done. He feels they may have been very rough with her (my cars are "hers") or who knows what -- just no way to know.
OK now the question in my mind is what is the angle here? Why would a place sabbotage a sale with money down (2 grand) by beating on my car? The answer came the next day when the salesman called to announce how, "they know I am in a big hurry and really need the car right away." They FEEL for me and really want to help me out. First he wants me to bypass having the tranny repaired at Honda -- they will still take it as is -- but I need to get it to Queens. For those not from NY that is over an hour and half drive for me. He mysteriously does not have the color I initially chose but could get me that color without the Navigation. I point out that there is a considerable difference (2 grand) between the two cars and what would be the new price -- Ohhhh, well, they would come bring the car out to me; but the price was the same. He must have been crazy! My next call was to my attorneys (bad move on his part, since I am an elected official) who promptly got me out of the contract and made a few other "inquisitions" into their operation. After online research I learned this place has quite a reputation. BEWARE the Better Business Bureau has over 50 complaints against them. The more I learned the more disgusted I was about the whole situation. Very stressful and not a nice intro to the land of Acura (stepping up as it was). It took almost three weeks to get my refund of the deposit and fortunately I had done that through my credit cards -- so I just disputed them and won.
The story ends on a nice note... I called around and Smithtown Acura offered to meet the same price on the same car as Paragon. He did not have my first choice in color, but offered to order it if I wanted to wait. I opted for the Satin Silver (it looks awesome anyway) and he handled me quite professionally. He did a great job and I had the car within a few days. I can highly recommend Mitch at Smithtown. He was great with me -when I picked up the car there were a few minor problems (i.e. small scratches on the metal trim and bubbles on the tint) -- he immediately gave me a voucher for repair and offered a loaner car. Anyone can make mistakes, but how they are handled is what matters.
Who knows whether the tranny went by a pure matter of coincidence -- or was it foul play? In any event, my advice is to stay away from Paragon -- for those in NY stick to Smithtown... Besides, it was because of that research that I discovered this site and became addicted to all it offers. I have been like a voyeur here for awhile, but felt this was an important story to tell. Perhaps someone else can avoid the aggravation!
Thanks.

[larchmont]

What a story! Glad it had a (basically) happy ending. But, what you had to go through to get there!!

By the way, immediately at the beginning of your story, I didn't have too good a feeling when you mentioned Paragon. It seems we've heard nothing but BAD about Paragon.
Check out these two threads:

http://www.tsxclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5636&highlight=paragon

http://www.tsxclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5119&highlight=paragon

[Caphaddock]

Thanks for the threads, I decided to add some of my comments to the others just for the sake of helping neophytes avoid the same pitfalls. I really think Acura HQ should take notice of what this place is doing to the good Acura name...

[canaleman]

Briny do you have any pictures of this worn part of the seat? I think I have the same problem, and I will describe it like this. Basically if you are sitting in the driver seat, it is the left side of the bottom seat cushion...it has all these lines and folds in it.

I have exactly the same problem. I have a 2005 Honda Pilot EX-L with only 9,000 miles on it. I have a rip in the vinyl in exactly the same place you describe. the side of the seat (where your butt goes over when you get in) looks like that of a car with 75K miles on it. I can only imagine what it will look like in 10-20k miles. THe seats are extremely cheap and if I knew this I would have gotten fabric. I always bought nissans and never had any issues whatsoever. I think I am going back. thanks.

[Neo-Omega]

If service sucks for me like your situation, the answer is 3 letters.... BBB.....

[GO_TSX]

Stay Away from Goodson Acura in IRVING , TX ( for those in DFW metroplex Area) Snake Oil Salesmen .