which car to choose (part 2)

[coon409]

Hey just wondering which would you choose:

tsx
audi a4
bmw 3 series
benz c240

thanx,

josh

[Ray]

tsx all the way!! test drive them all see what you like.

[larchmont]

Dunno if Josh is still around, but.....

It all depends what your priorities are. I'd take the TSX.
In fact I did take the TSX. :D

But depending on what you're interested in, I could see why you might pick one of the others.

[sjlee]

Originally posted by larchmont
Dunno if Josh is still around, but.....

It all depends what your priorities are. I'd take the TSX.
In fact I did take the TSX. :D

But depending on what you're interested in, I could see why you might pick one of the others.

I agree. With the TSX, you definitely get more car for your buck than the others... in addition, it'll be more reliable.

The only reason to get an A4 or a 325 is that you can get AWD as an option.

[larchmont]

Originally posted by sjlee
I agree. With the TSX, you definitely get more car for your buck than the others... in addition, it'll be more reliable.

The only reason to get an A4 or a 325 is that you can get AWD as an option.
I agree with that too, although for my needs, I'm completely happy enough with FWD -- at least with a car like the TSX.

But really, and I know I'm in a minority on this (boy I've been having to say that a lot lately :D ) -- it's beyond me to understand why people would pay that kind of money to get cars with subpar reliability.

It seems that BMW may possibly have gotten themselves out of that hole, although not clear. But with an Audi you're just asking for trouble.

[sjlee]

Originally posted by larchmont
I agree with that too, although for my needs, I'm completely happy enough with FWD -- at least with a car like the TSX.

But really, and I know I'm in a minority on this (boy I've been having to say that a lot lately :D ) -- it's beyond me to understand why people would pay that kind of money to get cars with subpar reliability.

It seems that BMW may possibly have gotten themselves out of that hole, although not clear. But with an Audi you're just asking for trouble.

If you're not going to have snow tires, then FWD is definitely the way to go if you're in a place that gets significant snowfall in the winter.

I agree with you on reliability. That's one of the most important factors when I buy a car. For me, I'm willing to pay a little extra to get something that's not going to need repair work... and that applies to just about everything I purchase.

People buy cars for different reasons, and they have different priorities when the select a car. For some, it's looks or amenities, while for others it's simply brand name.

Sure, an Acura may not handle as well as a BMW or be as luxurious as a Mercedes, but it offers a combination of performance, reliability and value that most competitors cannot come close to.

[kiteboy]

Agreed with the others. It depends on priorities, how long you plan on keeping the car, and if you mind if it's in the shop from time to time, even under warranty.

The 3-series and C-class cover a lot of price range. The upper end (M3, C32, S4) is way beyond the TSX. Similarly equiped (A4 1.8T, 325i, C230K + sport and lux options), the TSX represents much better value, but less brand equity.

To match the TSX on price, you need to get the stripper versions of the Germans, which are really hard to find, and frankly, not very nice.

[Ferg]

Originally posted by kiteboy


To match the TSX on price, you need to get the stripper versions of the Germans, which are really hard to find, and frankly, not very nice.

Um, yes and no. I visited a BMW dealer out of curiosity, just this past Wednesday (Feb 11). I drove a 325i and was very impressed. It stickered for just over $30K (it was $30,500 or somewhere in there). The only options were heated seats, and a sunroof. It's a very nice car, even equipped this close to "base".

Yes, the car is called a "strippo", but it's not really stripped the way my old base Tercel was. It has the usual power windows, locks, keyless entry, dynamic stability control, etc. and so forth. I'm not going to list it all here -- check www.bmwusa.com or more info. In all, it has a fairly good list of standard features, although the list of standards in the TSX is a good bit better.

At this level, the TSX has leather, navi, xenon headlamps, and a power seat. The BMW has a sweet 6 cylinder that's a good bit more powerful than the TSX (even tho on paper, the TSX is better), and has a fantastic ride even without the sport package. This base suspension -- IMHO -- performed much better than the TSX's when driven down the same curvy road (with about a 1/2 hour between the test drives).

The 325i includes "leatherette" seating surfaces which are okay. I like them better than the cloth in my Maxima, but not nearly as much as the leather in the TSX. The leatherette doesn't look that much different than BMW's leather upgrade, with the notable exception of double-stitching on the BMW leather. Grain and feel are very close. To me, this says more about the lower quality of BMW's leather than about the high quality of their leatherette. :) To be fair, a friend has a 3-series with leatherette, and it's wearing extraordinarily well.

Don't get me wrong, the TSX is quite a nimble little handler, and has decent power, but the BMW does more with it's 185 HP than the TSX does with it's 200 HP. BMW's steering feel is very good, although I think both cars feel a little twitchy at highway speeds, certainly not as settled as the Accord or Camry. The manual tranny on the TSX has a tighter and more precise feel than the 325's more rubbery manual.

The Acura's interior is a notch above the BMW. The 325's insides were ergonomic, but not as slick as the TSX. I think the TSX probably has more storage space, and a touch more perceived room in the back seats.

All told, they are pretty comparable. The BMW has a bit more focus on the performance aspect, while the TSX tempers some of that performance to crank up the luxury quotient a bit. A TSX with navi is going to run $28,490 plus shipping which gets to around $29K total. Dealers are not giving deep discounts at this time because the TSX is a pretty hot item. Most people seem to get around $500 to $750 off sticker on the TSX? According to the salesman I talked to Wednesday, the price of the BMW, as outfitted as I described, can hit the $29,500 range. All told, you'll pay about $500 to $1000 more for the BMW.

Don't forget about BMW's amazing maintenance plan -- 4 years/50K miles, just like the standard BMW warranty. Under this plan, all maintenance (scheduled or otherwise) is free. That's right, free. Oil changes? Free. Need new windshield wipers? Free. Warped rotors? Free. Need new brake pads? Free. This is much different than a standard warranty that does not usually include wear items.

[Ferg]

PS -- the dealer could get me any one of the colors I liked within 24 hours, with the exact same options I listed in the post above. They were just sitting in storage in NJ, ready to be delivered overnight once I put down a deposit (which I did not do).

Ferg

[Whatchamacallit]

Originally posted by Ferg
According to the salesman I talked to Wednesday, the price of the BMW, as outfitted as I described, can hit the $29,500 range. All told, you'll pay about $500 to $1000 more for the BMW.

I don't mean to nitpick but the price of non-Nav TSX should be compared to non-Nav 325i, in which case the difference would be $2500 to $3000.

Yes, I understand this is the price difference between the two cars equiped with YOUR preference but apples-to-apples, oranges-to-oranges.

[larchmont]

Originally posted by Whatchamacallit
I don't mean to nitpick but the price of non-Nav TSX should be compared to non-Nav 325i, in which case the difference would be $2500 to $3000....
Not a nit-pick at all. That's more like the actual difference.

[Ferg]

No, you're not nitpicking, but I think you guys my point....apples to apples, if you loaded the BMW up with everything the TSX has, it would likely be close to $36K!! Someone earlier mentioned that if you wanted to get a BMW close to the price of a TSX, you had to strip it.

In response, I was comparing the almost-stripped BMW that I drove to the loaded TSX specifically, in an effort to show that a "stripped" 325i really isn't all that bereft of amenities, and in fact stands on it's own as a viable car even without all the options/packages BMW offers.

You'll get no argument from me -- the TSX definitely comes with more standard features than the BMW, and for a lower price. However, I could buck up an extra $1000 over what I'll spend on a TSX tomorrow, and get a 325i with sunroof and heated seats. In doing so, I would effectively sacrifice the leather, the navi, the xenons, and the cooler interior of the TSX, but would gain a faster car with better driving dynamics/handling and an incredibly comprehensive maintenance program that would easily make up for the higher up-front cost.

I see the two cars as being very close, indeed.

[larchmont]

Originally posted by Ferg
....I see the two cars as being very close, indeed.
Yes. And for me, what make the difference in TSX's favor are FWD and reliability. Also, to a lesser extent, being just-enough bigger to be significant, and I like the ride a little better. As for the money difference, well, that's a bonus.

I know you can get AWD in the BMW, but there's still the other factors. Plus, the cost difference then becomes considerable.

[bob shiftright]

Originally posted by Ferg
According to the salesman I talked to Wednesday, the price of the BMW, as outfitted as I described, can hit the $29,500 range. All told, you'll pay about $500 to $1000 more for the BMW.

Don't forget about BMW's amazing maintenance plan -- 4 years/50K miles, just like the standard BMW warranty. Under this plan, all maintenance (scheduled or otherwise) is free. That's right, free. Oil changes? Free. Need new windshield wipers? Free. Warped rotors? Free. Need new brake pads? Free. This is much different than a standard warranty that does not usually include wear items.

The base 325i comes wih 205/55-16 tires, just fine on my Volvo station wagon but on a Bimmer? Like the rest of the Euros they ask you to pay extra for the good wheels, tires and suspension pieces. Comparably equipped (and I'll give BMW the vinyl seats, since the Acura's "pleather" seats are mostly vinyl, too.) with the sport suspension, Xenon, and heated seats, I came up with a transaction price of about $33k for the 325i w. vinyl seats. Less the BMWCCA discount (doesn't everyone belong?)

Acura has an even more amazing maintenance program than BMW, pretty much everthing that's required up to 110,000 miles I can easily do by myself, in the privacy of my own garage. :) That means I don't have to take the time and trouble to make a service appointment, reserve and pick up a loaner car and then bring the car back to fix whatever they screw up doing the routine service.

All things being equal I'd choose a 330i with the Performance Package but all things aren't equal, so I bought the TSX and stock in Honda Motor Co. Ltd. with the change.

[kiteboy]

The situation is different in Canada. A 325i, AT, metallic paint and no other options is $41.5k, whch is almost $7k more than a TSX ($34.8k). Even an absolute bare-bones MT in red, white or black is $39.5k.

To match the TSX price, the only car available would be the base 320i, MT, non-metallic paint with steel wheels ($34.9k). Even if you allowed an extra 10% on the price you could just get either the AT ($1300) or sport package ($2500). That's still the 168hp car with vinyl, any way you slice it.

You could get an A4 CVT with premium package for $38k, but a C230K starts at $40k and is not well outfitted in that trim, imho.

I'm comparing list prices. But in Canada, Acura is willing to deal on the TSX (I got over $2k off mine) and the Germans just laugh at you.

Cdn dealers order their cars directly from Europe and don't have access to warehouses full of them. None of them carry these cars w/o leather, moonroof, power seats, etc.

I keep hearing how a German horse is more powerful than Japanese horse. I'd like to see some dyno evidence to back that up. Until then, it's just a subjective evaluation.

[johnej]

I will put another car into the pot..How about the new Saab 9-3... It is comparably priced to all the above cars, front wheel drive, and has 3 models to choose from with a fully loaded 9-3 vector coming in at a little over 32k...

[larchmont]

Originally posted by kiteboy
The situation is different in Canada. A 325i, AT, metallic paint and no other options is $41.5k, whch is almost $7k more than a TSX ($34.8k). Even an absolute bare-bones MT in red, white or black is $39.5k.....
Hmmm. I guess that must mean either the BMW is relatively more expensive in Canada than in the U.S., or the TSX is relatively less expensive in Canada than in the U.S. (Or both.)

Which is it?

[larchmont]

Originally posted by johnej
I will put another car into the pot..How about the new Saab 9-3... It is comparably priced to all the above cars, front wheel drive, and has 3 models to choose from with a fully loaded 9-3 vector coming in at a little over 32k...
Absolutely.

I used to think there was almost nothing that should make someone really consider the 9-3 -- that if you're looking for FWD and good reliability and good driving (not to mention a good buy), you've got the TSX, and if you don't care that much about reliability plus you want maybe better driving and you like RWD (not to mention "prestige"), you've got the BMW. But in a way the Saab combines some of all those things. I wouldn't trust the reliability enough yet (although apparently it's been getting better and might even be real good now), and while it's a nice driving car I don't like the ride as much as the TSX, and it's a lot harder to get Saabs serviced around here.

But it's in this mix, for sure.

[johnej]

I test drove the Saab 9-3 vector. I thought it was a fun car to drive. The turb lag was almost non existent. The handling was firm and the feedback was good. However the thing that swayed me to the TSX was the location of the dealershiip and the number of dealers....

[kiteboy]

Originally posted by larchmont
Hmmm. I guess that must mean either the BMW is relatively more expensive in Canada than in the U.S., or the TSX is relatively less expensive in Canada than in the U.S. (Or both.)

Which is it?

The current exchange rate is $1.38 CDN = $1.00 USD.

325i base price, $39.5 CDN - $28.8 USD, factor of 1.37
TSX $34.8 CDN, $26.5 USD, factor 1.31

So the Cdn TSX is a bit cheaper than the straight exchange rate conversion, whereas BMW is about dead-on. Add to that the willingness of Acura dealers to move on the price and not BMW.

I'm not sure when the BMW prices were set, but when the TSX was priced last April, the exrate was over 1.5, which made the Cdn price a huge bargain compared to the US.

Slightly lower retail pricing is the norm with consumer goods since the economy is generally a bit softer here. Although the beating that the USD as taken has leveled the playing field a lot.

[kiteboy]

Originally posted by johnej
I test drove the Saab 9-3 vector. I thought it was a fun car to drive. The turb lag was almost non existent. The handling was firm and the feedback was good. However the thing that swayed me to the TSX was the location of the dealershiip and the number of dealers....

I liked the 9-3 when I tested it. The sales guy actually took the controls for half the test drive and really drove the car at the limit to demonstrate the high speed handling, braking and stablity control. It was very impressive since he could demonstrate the car in a part of the performance envelope that I wouldn't dare venture into during a test drive.

They are sold out of Saturn dealers in Canada, and the dealer was really trying to distance Saab away from Saturn and GM, and positioning it as a premium European brand. However, that didn't prevent him from applying the Saturn no-dicker rule and that priced it well beyond the TSX, similarly equipped.

[johnej]

The price was comparable (within 4k), however, the salesman was not all that friendly, nor helpful. I only wanted the base vector (9-3) and they only had them with the touring package....they also would not order it....

So like I said the acura dealership is 10 min away, friendly, and I enjoyed the sales experience. I went with the TSX.

[larchmont]

Originally posted by kiteboy
.....Add to that the willingness of Acura dealers to move on the price and not BMW....
I've had the impression that in the U.S. it's been more THE OPPOSITE lately, in terms of TSX and 3-series (not necessarily other Acura and BMW models), judging from posts on the TSX forums. (Don't know for sure though.)

[kiteboy]

The supply and demand dynamic for the TSX is different in Canada. We were allocated 4,000 units, which on a per-capita basis is much more supply than the US (figure 10:1 population ratio). Also, the bestselling car here is the Civic (instead of the Accord), so the TSX more of a step-up in relation to the avg. price of a car here.

As a result, it's typical to find at least a few TSX sitting in lots at any given time and dealers are willing to discount. I'm not sure why there aren't discounts on 3-series and A4 actually. They're everywhere in Toronto. Maybe it's because I was shopping the low-end of their range and the dealer isn't likely to work too hard at it, but concentrate on the 330 and 5-series customers instead.

[sjlee]

Originally posted by Ferg
You'll get no argument from me -- the TSX definitely comes with more standard features than the BMW, and for a lower price. However, I could buck up an extra $1000 over what I'll spend on a TSX tomorrow, and get a 325i with sunroof and heated seats. In doing so, I would effectively sacrifice the leather, the navi, the xenons, and the cooler interior of the TSX, but would gain a faster car with better driving dynamics/handling and an incredibly comprehensive maintenance program that would easily make up for the higher up-front cost.

I see the two cars as being very close, indeed.

Leather, navi, xenons and upgraded interior? You may think that giving up those things are worth it, but you're talking over $3000 in options... not a drop in the bucket.

In addition, the 325i is not running away from the TSX at the dragstrip.

Car and Driver
325i (MT): 0-60mph 7.0sec; 1/4-mile 15.4sec
TSX (MT): 0-60mph 7.2sec; 1/4-mile 15.6sec

If anything the cars are very close in performance, with the slight edge going to the BMW in handling.

You're also forgetting a couple other difference between the two cars... one being reliability... the other being FWD. Although the BMW will handle better because of its RWD, in less than perfect conditions (rain, snow, etc.), the TSX will have better traction. With a FWD car, you can get away with all-season tires in the snow. With a RWD car, you'd need to get dedicated snow tires to get superior traction.

[Magicman571]

I'll be honest...I'm debating putting my TSX (Carbon Grey, Black Int w/ Nav) up for sale in order to go for a BMW M3 (2003) instead. My main issues have been with craving more power, slicker, more sporty looks, and an overall gut feeling-- me and the T are beginning to grow apart. :' (

[larchmont]

Originally posted by Magicman571
I'll be honest...I'm debating putting my TSX (Carbon Grey, Black Int w/ Nav) up for sale in order to go for a BMW M3 (2003) instead. My main issues have been with craving more power, slicker, more sporty looks, and an overall gut feeling-- me and the T are beginning to grow apart. :' (
That's great -- if you don't need top-notch reliability (yes, it's true :D ), and if you're not where you expect much snow/slush/ice (or else you're OK with having snow tires a few months of the year).
And of course if you have the $$ (guess you do). :cool:

But don't get me wrong -- I know that probably 90% of the people here would kill for an M3!


P.S. Sorry to hear that you and your "T" aren't getting along so great. :surprised

[Whatchamacallit]

BMW M3: Yum.... :drool1:
BMW M5: :drool1: :drool1: :drool1:

If you can afford it, go for it, especially if you own another car (for snow days and such). A lot of people can only dream about owning one.

[larchmont]

I'd sooner take an M6. :D

Seriously.


But of course I'm a claimed acknowledged moron.

[Whatchamacallit]

Originally posted by larchmont
I'd sooner take an M6. :D

Seriously.


But of course I'm a claimed acknowledged moron.

M6 as in Mazda6? :eek: I also like Mazda6 a lot but we're talking about BMW M5 here. Maybe your previous BMW ownership was more traumatic than I originally thought.

Hmmm, I see a pattern here. You went from TL to TSX. Now favoring Mazda6 vs BMW M5. Pretty soon, you're gonna tell us you traded your TSX for either a Ford Pinto or a Yugo. :D

[larchmont]

Originally posted by Whatchamacallit
M6 as in Mazda6? :eek: I also like Mazda6 a lot but we're talking about BMW M5 here. Maybe your previous BMW ownership was more traumatic than I originally thought.

Hmmm, I see a pattern here. You went from TL to TSX. Now favoring Mazda6 vs BMW M5. Pretty soon, you're gonna tell us you traded your TSX for either a Ford Pinto or a Yugo. :D
rofl!

But you might not be far off. :D

Yes indeed, my BMW was no picnic. When it was good, it was pretty darn good. But there were far too many other kinds of times.

[johnej]

Don't forget about the Vega either...

[larchmont]

OK, keep 'em coming, I can take it.

What about the Chevette? I remember the first TV commercial for it.
They showed a guy sitting in the car saying, "The Chevette is much better than I expected." :D
He didn't say it with a lot of conviction either.

[Altersys]

If Nav is not on your list, then it's a close race and just depends on your preference, IMO. If Nav matters then there's absolutely no freaking competition.