Security System Bug

[dysonlu]

First, sorry if this has been posted and discussed already.

Today, I experience an unexpected behavior with my TSX '05 alarm/security system not documented in the manual. Here's how it happened:

1- Unlock driver door with remote
2- Enter car, lock doors with main lock switch
3- Wait 15-20 seconds
4- Insert key into ignition and turn
5- The alarm sounds

If I read the manual correctly, the alarm should never sound when the key is inserted into the ignition (the manual mentions several scenarios where the alarm would sound but inserting key is not one of them).

To turn alarm off, open the door, unlock and lock with remote. Then, there's a side-effect of this "bug": now, when you open the driver's door, the front panel does not light up as it used to. This can be fixed but I can't remember the exact action I did to restore this to the "normal state" -- I played with the door (open/close), courtesy light and key in the ignition.

Comments?

[LannyMCS]

..........and the car doesn't start.

I don't think that's a bug; it's just not fully described in the manual. When you lock the car, it waits 15 seconds and then arms the alarm. It doesn't know if you are in the car, but it assumes you are not.

When you put the key in, the alarm should sound and prevent the car from starting. It's no different than if you were out of the car and locked the doors, and someone came along and broke the window and climbed inside-at that point the alarm wouldn't have sounded-but if they tried the ignition or opened a door at that point, the alarm would go off.

[dysonlu]

The car DID START.

The alarm sounds as soon as the key touches the ignition. I thought that the alarm would turn itself off when I start the engine but no: the engine starts and the alarm still continues.

In my opinion, the alarm should not sound because it's a genuine (electronically valid) key!

[larchmont]

It doesn't sound familiar, and it does sound like there's something wrong.

BTW......I don't exactly understand most of that last paragraph ("To turn alarm off....")

[Peregrine]

I don't know how that alarm is supposed to behave but, apparently, from what you are describing, when you lock the doors with the main switch, that initiates a countdown after which the alarm arms. It goes off when it senses the key in the ignition. Don't ask me what and how it's supposed to work. All these OEM alarms are just price boosters but don't really give you many high-end options as good aftermarket alarms do. As far as your predicament, try unlocking your car with the key in the door. There are arm and disarm wires connected to your door lock cylinder. One would assume that they work the same as arming and disarming from your remote, but you never know until you try. These wires are the most reliable arming / disarming signals, so when you disarm from the door lock using your key (just unlock the car) hopefully all functions will be disarmed and reset and should work as they did b4.

[dysonlu]

It doesn't sound familiar, and it does sound like there's something wrong.

BTW......I don't exactly understand most of that last paragraph ("To turn alarm off....")

Not sure what's not clear to you but let me re-phrase: To stop the alarm, I opened the door, and presse the lock and unlock button on the remote. Then, there's a side-effect of this "alarm bug": normally, when you open the driver's door, the front display panel (where the status lights and meters are located) lights up (along with the courtesy lights), but now after the "alarm bug" occurred, it doesn't light up anymore.

[dysonlu]

I don't know how that alarm is supposed to behave but, apparently, from what you are describing, when you lock the doors with the main switch, that initiates a countdown after which the alarm arms. It goes off when it senses the key in the ignition.

Yeah, the alarm should go off (disarm) when it senses the valid key in the ignition. But it does not and that's the bug.

[Peregrine]

Yeah, the alarm should go off (disarm) when it senses the valid key in the ignition. But it does not and that's the bug.

By "going off" I meant it starts to honk and flash lights. I didn't mean it should disarm itself. Most properly installed alarms, when they're armed and you start messing with the ignitions switch, they'll go off = sound the sires, flash lights, etc. This is a desired function, not a bug. I understood your explained bug as the dash lights not coming up after you play with the door and lock switch. But that may be part of computer programming. By using a combination of different signals (open/closed door, locked/unlocked, etc) you are "talking to the computer" and some manufacturers use those abbreviated methods for various "short-hand" programming/resetting. So when you started playing around with opening/closing doors, locking/unlocking, etc, you might have "told" the computer to disable the dash lights. Long story short, try unlocking from the door using your key in the lock cylinder. With the doors closed, lock it, unlock it, repeat again and then see if everything is the way it's supposed to be.

[dysonlu]

By "going off" I meant it starts to honk and flash lights. I didn't mean it should disarm itself. Most properly installed alarms, when they're armed and you start messing with the ignitions switch, they'll go off = sound the sires, flash lights, etc. This is a desired function, not a bug.

Answer this question: SHOULD a *valid* (I repeat VALID) key trigger the alarm (i.e. honk and flash lights)?

Common sense tells me the answer is no. But that's what happened with the sequence of events I described. Inserting a genuine key into the ignition is NOT the same as "messing with the ignitions switch".

[Peregrine]

it dosn't matter what key it is. You're not starting the car, and the transponder signal is not checked until you turn the key, anyway. The signal to the alarm is apparently sent by the key-sense wire which senses any key as soon as you start inserting it into the ignition cylinder. Obviously, this happens before you can start turning the key.
I'm not even sure if the transponder protection is even integrated with the OEM alarm. It may be a totally separate protection independent of the alarm. The transponder simply checks for a right signal inside your key when you turn the key to IGN position.

[dysonlu]

it dosn't matter what key it is. You're not starting the car, and the transponder signal is not checked until you turn the key, anyway. The signal to the alarm is apparently sent by the key-sense wire which senses any key as soon as you start inserting it into the ignition cylinder. Obviously, this happens before you can start turning the key.
I'm not even sure if the transponder protection is even integrated with the OEM alarm. It may be a totally separate protection independent of the alarm. The transponder simply checks for a right signal inside your key when you turn the key to IGN position.


Sure, this is how the mechanism works. But it doesn't necessarily mean that this is correct and logical and that it has to be that way. That's my point.

[larchmont]

Looks like you guys are in the process of taking care of this.

But as a side issue......I'm extremely amused at the linguistic snafu -- "GO OFF" could mean 2 totally opposite things.
There are lots of things like this, probably in all languages.

BTW.....not that I have to understand it (and I probably won't anyway) :tard: but I'm not clear on whether there's something wrong with Dysonlu's car's system, or whether this is just how it is with the TSX.

[Peregrine]

he he, if I went only by correct and logical in my life, I'd be a hardcore criminal by now. Remember, it's all about the $$$, especially in US. Somehow, most european cultures are much more people oriented than US. But in US, all you can count on is constant patronizing, deception, and many elaborate ways designed for you to rid you of your $$$. The only logic that exists always derives from making $$$. If you want a product that behaves the way you want it, research it thoroughly before you give anybody your $$$.
I agree with you, things could've be done in many different ways, for instance they could've integrated the transponder protection so that when it sees the right signal in the inserted key, it would disarm the alarm, and the incorrect signal (incorrect key) would set the alarm off (start horn, lights, etc.). But apparently they did not design it that way (from what you explained to us). There could be a million reasons why. But the bottom line is, this is how it works, some people may like it, others won't, still others won't even care. I'm the one that doesn't really care, because I know that all OEM alarms are crap and I'd never rely on them as a protection for the car. They're a mere convenience to remotely unlock/lock car and maybe some other minor features. The only protection that is of any importance on the TSX is the transponder in your key. But even that could be bypassed by elaborate methods.

Yeah, Larchmont, I know, I was confused by that terminology clash myself at one point, too. But had to get used to it. Now I stick to 3 exclusive alarm stage terms: armed, disarmed, set off.

[afici0nad0]

i was thinking...

if someone really wanted to steal a tsx (while it is armed), is it possible for a thief to bend the hood to clip off the battery terminal wire?

if so, would modifying the battery connections, so that by adding a small 18 guage wire and grounding it to both the negitive terminal and in the middle of the firewall, provide an additional obstacle for a thief to deal with?

this idea is banking on the assumption that the thief would not notice the wire connected to the firewall, if the thief were to attempt to disarm the alarm by clipping off the terminal wire.

[Peregrine]

your idea is correct, or you can add additional hood sensor in the corner of the hood, so when someone tries lifting it, it will set off the alarm.

[afici0nad0]

so adding an additional sensor in the corner of the hood is possible with the stock alarm system?

[Peregrine]

yes it is. You can hook it up to the wire that senses if if the hood is open (hood trigger wire). It's a Green/black wire coming from the hood latch itself. It's in the black harness behind the front grill, coming from the latch, behind the left headlight, by the fender, under relay box, into the firewall.