Free Tibet? Why?

NeoChaser · 06-11-2005, 04:12 AM

I was insipred by Vituralbong's avatar and sig to start this topic. I m just
wondering if you support the "free tibet" movement? and if u do why or why
not?

for me, i've been against this movement since i first herd it almost 10 years
ago, before the hollywood movies "seven years in tibet" and "kundun."

when i went to lhasa couple weeks back i thought my trip would change my
opinion on this matter, but after my trip my point of view stand stronger
more than ever. kinda wana see wut are ur opinions are, i voice my points of
view in later posts.

wrong forum could someone plz move this to politics plz

bob shiftright · 06-11-2005, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeoChaser

I was insipred by Vituralbong's avatar and sig to start this topic. I m just wondering if you support the "free tibet" movement? and if u do why or why not?

I think "freedom" is a natural human state, so it must be a good thing.

However, I'm sadly unfamiliar with the ways in which a free or unfree Tibet is in the strategic interest or disinterest of the United States of America.

Perhaps you can illuminate me?

http://www.dailyllama.com/

lokman · 06-11-2005, 10:07 AM

I think the Free Tibet movement is more of a symbolic gesture than anything else, something to right the way it was taken by the Communist party back in the day. While I have a great amount of respect for the Dalai Llama, I think Tibet is probably better off now than had it remained independent. The Chinese government has been able to bring stability and economic growth, improving the general livelihood of Tibet's citizens, and Tibet does enjoy a certain amount of self-government as well. The tradeoff for this stability is an increasing amount of Han Chinese being relocated to Tibet and a diminishing of a purer Tibetan identity.

virtualbong · 06-11-2005, 03:45 PM

I was very unknowledgable about the Tibetan cause before I met my current gf (who is Tibetan), but after learning more about what has occurred in the past and what is still occurring now in Tibet, it is very tragic.

Honestly, after learning of what the Chinese government has done to innocent Tibetans (peace living Buddhist humans and mostly monks mind you) it has made me want to learn more. I am not going to preach what I have learned in my research, but before people start giving their opinions on what the Free Tibet movement is all about, I suggest doing some research.

lokman - I can see how some may think that China has brought stability and economic growth, but for whom? Chinese citizens who had no land before and now are settled in Tibet or Tibetans who have been living there all their lives?

Neochaser - Were you the one who wrote this or did you just move the topic? Well, this is to the person who visited Llasa. I would not direct your opinion on the matter from a visit to Llasa. It is populated by Chinese citizens now, but what made you feel stronger about being against the movement?

I also would ask myself, why are there so many Tibetan exiles? Why do we hear news about monks who protest peacefully, be thrown in jail, beaten and sexually violated?

For those who wonder why the US has not put their foot down on China for their human attrocities, the Tibetan issue is a touchy subject and China is a main player in the world. Think about it...

There are many things I find worrysome with the Tibetan issue, but one should research on their own to develop their own opinion on the matter.

Here are some links just to start:

http://www.savetibet.org/
http://www.tibet.org/
http://www.tibetoffice.org/en/

NeoChaser · 06-11-2005, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by virtualbong

I was very unknowledgable about the Tibetan cause before I met my current gf (who is Tibetan), but after learning more about what has occurred in the past and what is still occurring now in Tibet, it is very tragic.

of wut happened it was really tragic in terms of how many people died.
but it is a revolution. like most revolution, blood shed is almost unavoidable.
this is the short version of it without getting too much into history.

Quote:

Originally Posted by virtualbong

Honestly, after learning of what the Chinese government has done to innocent Tibetans (peace living Buddhist humans and mostly monks mind you) it has made me want to learn more. I am not going to preach

what I have learned in my research, but before people start giving their opinions on what the Free Tibet movement is all about, I suggest doing some research.

Tibetans aren't your stereotypical "peaceful living Buddhist" i m not gona preach either but i won't stop other ppl from expressing their opinions weather
if they have a tibetan gf or not. The religious govern society had their own
army and other military sectors, to have that means there gota be some kind
of confrontations with other tribes etc. and no most are not monks. that one is
not hard to understand, if MOST are monks then the tibetan minority has already
been extinct. instead of that, each family has to send a male child to become
a monk for a period in their life before they are allow to return to their family.

Quote:

Originally Posted by virtualbong

lokman - I can see how some may think that China has brought stability and economic growth, but for whom? Chinese citizens who had no land before and now are settled in Tibet or Tibetans who have been living there all their lives?

Actually, did you know tibetan hold 90% of the population in tibet sar?
and han chinese had no land b4, they still don't have land now

Quote:

Originally Posted by virtualbong

Neochaser - Were you the one who wrote this or did you just move the topic? Well, this is to the person who visited Llasa. I would not direct your opinion on the matter from a visit to Llasa. It is populated by Chinese citizens now, but what made you feel stronger about being against the movement?

yep it was me, i started, i agree with u on the part where i can't judge on
one single trip. however, i've been interested in (since i was a kid) and i major in
asian studies (concentrate in east asia) so i would say my knowledge
has some weight as well. now, wut i m gona say u are gona get even more
pissed (if you haven't already done so). IMHO, and this related to the
paragraph above, china's "west development" actions is the biggest single
thing the "commie" government can do to help tibet as well as other minority
sar's. and no it's not for the han chinese as i said han chinese is 10% of less
in those (s)ar's (ie xing jiang uygur and inner mongolia). all the current economic
development is the way to help the locals keep their culture. because they need
money. they need infrastructure. tibetans and other western ar's can not be
left behind while the rest of the country goes ahead. by setting up an economic infrastructure
money can be made, and there will be investments to help preserve their aged
building, better health care system (average life expectancy of a tibetn is 65 or less
i forgot the exact number)

Quote:

Originally Posted by virtualbong

I also would ask myself, why are there so many Tibetan exiles? Why do we hear news about monks who protest peacefully, be thrown in jail, beaten and sexually violated?

like my first point, it's a revolution, yes there were are lot of monks that left
with the Dalai Lama, but think about how many nationalist that left china during
the revolution?

Quote:

Originally Posted by virtualbong

For those who wonder why the US has not put their foot down on China for their human attrocities, the Tibetan issue is a touchy subject and China is a main player in the world. Think about it...

imo, the states don'ts have the best human rights records either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by virtualbong

There are many things I find worrysome with the Tibetan issue, but one should research on their own to develop their own opinion on the matter.

Here are some links just to start:

http://www.savetibet.org/
http://www.tibet.org/
http://www.tibetoffice.org/en/

i agree on that people should learn about this matter more, but we are on the
opposite end of the spectrum, your links and my comments are to extreme
which only would pint out comments that would benefit one side. this also include
your gf's opinions (no offence) also your sites
would never point out how much money the govnt poured into tibet so kids
can go to school for free (and plz don't say the commies are using that to brain
wash them)

while i was there, in lhasa and other small cities, i saw kids smile and wave at me
i saw old people smile and greet me, i saw people live in house (tibetan style) which were built
by the government loans (which did not have to be returned if didn't want to)
but i did not see any crack downs on people monks or other tibetans worshiping
or praying around the potala (you can see ppl praying almost 24 hours a day)
and even more people during may. their lives looked pretty normal to me.

the only thing that was not normal was of course the absence of the dalai lama,
i don't need to get into that , i think we all agree on this one. but to
conclude on this edition of our debate i wana ask you this virtualbong, when the
Dalai Lama came to vancouver he said Tibet is part of China what do you
think on that. btw let's try not to put too much emotions into this, keep this
debate clean and respectful to all participants. also i m not a communist nor
am i from china.

virtualbong · 06-12-2005, 12:28 AM

I am by no means, an expert on the history of what has happened in Tibet and China, but from what I've read and from what I can gather on how China is dealing with the situation, how is it that China is "helping" Tibet, when Tibet didn't ask for help? And please let me know how the Tibetans are succeeding in life now because of the Chinese? From what I can gather, new jobs may be opening up for people, but mostly they are given to Chinese rather than Tibetans.

When I said "mostly monks mind you", I wasn't talking about Tibet being populated by mostly monks, I meant that Chinese officers abused and jailed mostly monks because of having a picture of the dalai lama or raising the Tibetan flag during peaceful protests. And have you read about what the Chinese Government did to the female monks while they were imprisoned in your Asian Studies course? Of course not. That is why one needs to go beyond what is handed to them and research what else is out there.

Let me ask you this? When you were in Llasa, did you see Tibetan flags being raised? Mostly likely not right? Why is that?

I don't understand how someone like you with such knowledge can believe that the Chinese are doing no harm here? But like I said before, everyone has their own opinion, one just hopes that the opinion is one that has been seriously thought about.

btw. I am full Chinese and I do have pride in my culture and heritage, but I am and will always be against human attrocities and I truly believe this is one.

NeoChaser · 06-12-2005, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by virtualbong

I don't understand how someone like you with such knowledge can believe that the Chinese are doing no harm here? But like I said before, everyone has their own opinion, one just hopes that the opinion is one that has been seriously thought about.

Then maybe you should gain more knowledge and then u'll understand. I dono
if you were directing at me or anyone opposing ur opinion, cause u kept on
saying ppl's opinions are not well thought.

virtualbong · 06-12-2005, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeoChaser

Then maybe you should gain more knowledge and then u'll understand. I dono
if you were directing at me or anyone opposing ur opinion, cause u kept on
saying ppl's opinions are not well thought.

I was directing it to people who are reading this thread and thinking about voicing their opinion. I want people to first read up as much as they can before doing so.

One question, do you believe that there are no human attrocities being done to Tibetans by the Chinese Government? If so, why are there countries like Canada who do believe this and are trying to ask China to stop their inhumane acts? If the U.S. weren't so tied economically to China, you would see more action by the U.S. I believe.

I have provided links to show my side of the story, please provide some for people to see your side.

NeoChaser · 06-13-2005, 04:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by virtualbong

I was directing it to people who are reading this thread and thinking about voicing their opinion. I want people to first read up as much as they can before doing so.

One question, do you believe that there are no human attrocities being done to Tibetans by the Chinese Government? If so, why are there countries like Canada who do believe this and are trying to ask China to stop their inhumane acts? If the U.S. weren't so tied economically to China, you would see more action by the U.S. I believe.

I have provided links to show my side of the story, please provide some for people to see your side.

I m at a net bar place right now, i will post in much more detail in a couple of days when i m back home.

robert_tg · 06-13-2005, 04:32 PM

lol, free ??? if it was not the Chinese, it would be Britain or India or Pakistan or Mongolia or Russian or......etc.

My point is that land like Tibet is "sort of", "kind of" like the Americas - Some power(s) would eventually claim and dominate it after a LOT of killing and destruction.

As for Tibet - those bastards behind the "British Empire" wanted it bad. If Tibet had one single sea port Britain would have claimed it colony long time ago along with India. And it'd would likely STILL be under British colonial rule today. - is British rule better ? would the Tibetans be "happier" as the HKer were before 97 ? I think yes but that's not really the point here is it ?

Wall of Voodoo · 06-14-2005, 12:36 AM

It's estimated that China has killed approximately 1,000,000 Tibetans since their post-WWII occupation of Tibet.

That's why.

lokman · 06-14-2005, 02:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wall of Voodoo

It's estimated that China has killed approximately 1,000,000 Tibetans since their post-WWII occupation of Tibet.

That's why.

China's persecution of religious leaders and people was hardly exclusive to Tibet. It's been estimated that 20 million people died from the famines that arose from the Great Leap Forward, not to mention the relocation and reeducation of several other million who were accused of being bourgeosie in the Cultural Revolution. The loss of human life, cultural artifacts and history during that period in Tibet AND China was incalculable. To some extent, to argue that Tibet should be freed should also be to argue that the rest of China be freed as they suffered under the very same forces and influences.

There is no debating that many of the actions of the past were regrettable, but it would be wrong to believe that Tibet alone shared in such suffering and persecution. Even today, China's human rights record without reference to Tibet is questionable, and when I say that I mean by Western standards. I say that because I can't put myself in that place to judge, since I give the Chinese government an enormous amount of respect for managing and guiding what is still a relatively poor country of over 1 billion people through a massive economic transformation. It's not an easy feat to balance the desire for stability against the desires of growth and freedom, which is inherently destabilising.

Incidentally, Wikipedia provides links to 13 articles for Tibetan independence, and 12 links to articles that are pro-China (though some admittedly of questionable quality). I'm not going to elaborate on them here, but I do want to point out that there is information out there that supports another side to the story.

Wall of Voodoo · 06-14-2005, 02:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lokman

since I give the Chinese government an enormous amount of respect for managing and guiding what is still a relatively poor country of over 1 billion people through a massive economic transformation. It's not an easy feat to balance the desire for stability against the desires of growth and freedom, which is inherently destabilising.

Well hell, you've convinced ME. When can we get the Chinese over here to take over America? I'm tired of all this destabilising growth and freedom.