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Discussion Starter #1
Now that I am without my beloved TSX for a month or so, I can be more objective when I take my friends criticism on paying too much for my car.

They said that I didn't bargain right that's right I pay $28k for my car ( they said most of the cars selling at invoice price these days, even the limited production R32 are selling at invoice).

Was I really being taken advantage of by the dealer ?
 

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Yeah, that's all you need -- that we should make you feel even worse!

No, I don't think we've heard of TSX's going for invoice or anywhere near it, except very very rarely (and frankly I was skeptical about those reports). The usual deal seems to be a few hundred off MSRP, sometimes $1000 off, sometimes a little more.

BUT.....it might not always be better to get a good deal. I've expressed this many times, and nobody has ever agreed with it right out, but then again nobody disagreed either: I think that the "better" your deal, the more likely that it will get "bumped," and that you'll have to wait longer for the car. People haven't discussed this at all -- they've ignored it. It's amazing. While it's not unusual for people (understandably) to ignore the dumb stuff that I post, they hardly ever ignore such car-related stuff, from anybody, yet on all of the TSX sites, every time, they wouldn't touch this with a 10-foot pole. I guess they find the subject too abhorrent to even get into, even worse than beheadings.

Why would it be more likely to get "bumped"? Because if someone else comes along who's willing to pay a higher price for the same car, they'll sell it to him. I'm not saying that people who get a good deal always or even usually get bumped, just that the good deal makes it more likely than if you're paying MSRP or close to it.

What I do know is this: The people who have posted horror stories about having to wait longer than promised have always seemed to have gotten a great great deal, and even the milder stories have almost always if not always involved better-than-average deals.

Is this a reason not to go for the best deal you can? Of course not.
But I took it into account in making my deal. I had been prepared to be paying MORE for a car, then was pleasantly surprised to find that this "cheaper" car was the one I most wanted. So even paying MSRP, I was paying less than I had expected to. And then my main priority was getting the car as fast as I could.

I still think you got a good deal.

Too bad what happened a couple of weeks later wasn't a good deal.....
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Make me feel a bit worse, yes. It is because they said if I could negotiate for a lower price then I may have a chance to declare total loss. (e.g. $27000 could be a total loss, but not $28000, because of the higher price :( )

Then, friends who also were in the market to get their car (eg. R32 or even 2005 MB C-class are selling at invoice ) get their cars at invoice or close to it. They asked me how come I got mine closer to MSRP than invoice. They said even MB are selling their 2005 at invoice and I got mine at close to MSRP. They said, " Are you crazy ? " or "you don't know how to bargain or something ?"

I guess like the good old "28" number. That's what I told them
 

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Very simple. The MB's are overpriced. The TSX isn't.
I'm not saying the MB's are crap cars, although I wouldn't take one for any price because of reliability issues. Just that the MSRP's are a lot higher than what people are willing to pay for the cars.
Which BTW may have a lot to do with the reliability issues.

MSRP isn't some magic "correct" number, it's just a hopeful number that the company puts on the car. Just like if you're selling something at a flea market (which is what car selling is like, isn't it?) :D the price that you ask for something is pretty arbitrary, and how much someone gets off that price doesn't have anything to do with whether he's getting a "good deal" even though he usually thinks it does.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
larchmont said:
Very simple. The MB's are overpriced. The TSX isn't.
I'm not saying the MB's are crap cars, although I wouldn't take one for any price because of reliability issues. Just that the MSRP's are a lot higher than what people are willing to pay for the cars.
Which BTW may have a lot to do with the reliability issues.

MSRP isn't some magic "correct" number, it's just a hopeful number that the company puts on the car. Just like if you're selling something at a flea market (which is what car selling is like, isn't it?) :D the price that you ask for something is pretty arbitrary, and how much someone gets off that price doesn't have anything to do with whether he's getting a "good deal" even though he usually thinks it does.
I don't think MSRP is any indication nowaday as most of the consumer know about the invoice price from the internet before they go car-shopping. Therefore, the MB sales actually gave my friend his invoice and show him the invoice price and said that he could sell him the car at that price. (I was there with him, but I didn't help him do any research beforehand, as I didn't know if he is seriously consider buying) However, my friend declined, so I went home and did some research for him and found out that the dealer is honest. The price in that "invoice" is really the invoice price.

From then on, that friend keep saying that even MB sold car (even 2005) @ invoice and I bought a Japanese car close to MSRP.

I did ask him to be honest, which car he thinks is better ? He said that TSX is indeed a better car. However, MB is MB. Its name worth all the money
 

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Diesel said:
I don't think MSRP is any indication nowaday as most of the consumer know about the invoice price from the internet before they go car-shopping......
Yes, practically speaking, the invoice price (or just a little below it) is usually the rock-bottom number of what you can ever hope to get a car for.

But that wasn't what I meant -- I was speaking in a theoretical way (yes isn't that useful) :D about what "good deal" and "worth it" really mean.

Good thing HondaMan and Pocketkiller aren't looking, or they'd hit me with that "semantics" thing.

The thing is, even "invoice" doesn't get at the issue. What if people aren't even willing to pay invoice? That has happened with cars, in fact it has happened a lot. You know all those cars that got discontinued, and those car makers that went out of business? Usually that meant that people weren't even willing to pay invoice. In other words (sort of), the car wasn't even worth how much it cost to make the car.

If you believe in the free market, which I basically do (especially for a liberal) :D then you believe that for the most part, how much something is worth is the amount that people are willing to pay for it.

People are willing to pay almost MSRP for TSX's. They're not willing to pay almost MSRP for those other cars, including the MB's. And that means the MB's just aren't worth the "official" prices. The TSX's are.
 

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Diesel said:
Now that I am without my beloved TSX for a month or so, I can be more objective when I take my friends criticism on paying too much for my car.

They said that I didn't bargain right that's right I pay $28k for my car ( they said most of the cars selling at invoice price these days, even the limited production R32 are selling at invoice).

Was I really being taken advantage of by the dealer ?
Don't beat yourself up on what other people think. If you think you got a good deal leave it at that. I used to be a sales rep and I noticed one thing everytime. People who bargain for bottom dollar price were never happy. People who didn't haggle too much always seemed to be happier.

Larch you continually seem to impress me with your advice and responses. Not kissing ass just stating my observations.
 

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I really don't think you could have got the TSX at invoice. It just isn't happening unless you have an inside deal. $1k off is nothing to look down at. Its actually better than the TMV price at edmunds which seems to be pretty accurate.

I am watching Larch, and I see the semantics oozing from that post, but regarding your 10-foot pole comment:

I bargained for $1300 off msrp, and at that time my car combination was not on the dealer lot. They like most other dealers had the list of which cars were coming in the next month, and found the one I requested. I gave them $500 deposit, and they told me it would be about 3 weeks. They called me in 2 weeks with the car, at the price negotiated.

I'm not saying that some people don't get 'bumped', but I know that I did not get bumped. It just depends if you're working with honest dealers. Sounds crazy, but there actually are honest dealers out there. Not honest to the point they tell you how much they are ripping you off for (if that is the case), but honest in delivering on their promises. You just have to find those dealers.

Also, to you it may be worth paying msrp if you need the car THAT DAY and don't want to risk getting 'bumped', but personally I would rather save $1300 or even $500, rent a car or borrow a car for a couple weeks, and wait for my TSX to arrive...even if I do get bumped. What is a couple weeks in the scheme of 10 years of ownership?
 

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wariosport said:
Don't beat yourself up on what other people think. If you think you got a good deal leave it at that. I used to be a sales rep and I noticed one thing everytime. People who bargain for bottom dollar price were never happy. People who didn't haggle too much always seemed to be happier.

Larch you continually seem to impress me with your advice and responses. Not kissing ass just stating my observations.
Interesting. And of course thanks very much for the props.....

Larchmont, who isn't really sure how to use that word either. :D
 

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pocketkiller said:
.....I bargained for $1300 off msrp, and at that time my car combination was not on the dealer lot. They like most other dealers had the list of which cars were coming in the next month, and found the one I requested. I gave them $500 deposit, and they told me it would be about 3 weeks. They called me in 2 weeks with the car, at the price negotiated.

I'm not saying that some people don't get 'bumped', but I know that I did not get bumped. It just depends if you're working with honest dealers. Sounds crazy, but there actually are honest dealers out there. Not honest to the point they tell you how much they are ripping you off for (if that is the case), but honest in delivering on their promises. You just have to find those dealers.

Also, to you it may be worth paying msrp if you need the car THAT DAY and don't want to risk getting 'bumped', but personally I would rather save $1300 or even $500, rent a car or borrow a car for a couple weeks, and wait for my TSX to arrive...even if I do get bumped. What is a couple weeks in the scheme of 10 years of ownership?
It's nice to be able to agree with your nemesis sometimes.

(And there's another word I'm not sure I understand.) :D

Totally right about honest dealers. We all would hope that nobody ever gets "bumped," but I'm pretty sure they do. Not always and not even usually, but I think you're taking some chance of that when you have a "great" deal.

And right also about it not being worth big bucks just to maybe get the car faster. Except sometimes.....

Not that it's an admirable emotional trait, but aren't there times that we want something "NOW"? And where it's OK to go for it? That's how I was feeling about the TSX. And BTW "right now" wasn't possible anyway. The fastest possible was 3 weeks, which is what it wound up being. What I didn't want was take any significant chance of having to wait 2 or 3 months. Sure, an extra week or two hardly ever should make much difference to us. But at that time, I would have hated to wait even that much longer.

But the main thing is, this was right at the beginning, and none of us had any sure idea of what the availability would be. For all I knew, it might have taken months. I know that's rare, but there were indeed stories like that in this area about (for example) the Mini, and I wouldn't have been surprised if that had been the case with the TSX too.
 

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But the main thing is, this was right at the beginning, and none of us had any sure idea of what the availability would be. For all I knew, it might have taken months. I know that's rare, but there were indeed stories like that in this area about (for example) the Mini, and I wouldn't have been surprised if that had been the case with the TSX too.[/QUOTE]


Agreed at the beginning, things were uncertain, but now people should not have to wait several months (unless you live in Hawii).

Diesel - if you want to buy an 04, I wouldn't worry about getting bumped, and I would try to negotiate for $27,500 (navi). If you're waiting for 05 models, who knows...there may even be a price increase.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
pocketkiller said:
But the main thing is, this was right at the beginning, and none of us had any sure idea of what the availability would be. For all I knew, it might have taken months. I know that's rare, but there were indeed stories like that in this area about (for example) the Mini, and I wouldn't have been surprised if that had been the case with the TSX too


Agreed at the beginning, things were uncertain, but now people should not have to wait several months (unless you live in Hawii).

Diesel - if you want to buy an 04, I wouldn't worry about getting bumped, and I would try to negotiate for $27,500 (navi). If you're waiting for 05 models, who knows...there may even be a price increase.
I probably would keep my car. I thought long and hard about it and decide that if it's OEM parts and the work is done correctly. There would still be some different, but I just use the car for commuting not racing all the time. So, I wouldn't notice much of a difference. Moreover, my car doesn't have rattle problem (well......I mean before the accident :( ) so its pretty nice if its 98% back to normal.
 
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