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Discussion Starter #1
so i just wanted some opinions and maybe hear some experiences that others have had using a lower timing chain guide, like the hpt one. i recently had to replace my timing chain and tensioner due to chain stretch and causing it to jump some teeth, so i went ahead and changed the chain guides as well as installing the wider k20z upper chain guide and hpt lower chain guide to try and prevent the same thing from happening again. so has anybody else used these parts on their motors? any input will be appreciated, and i havent tried starting the motor yet... still waiting to install new water pump and idler, but i do have pics to share...
HPT lower chain guide/bracket

k20z upper chain guide
 

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Its a waste of money. To prevent teeth jumping you just need to replace your chain in time, not installing such mods. Stretched chain can start shaving aluminium out of that guide and your engine will not be really happy with it.
 

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Its a waste of money. To prevent teeth jumping you just need to replace your chain in time, not installing such mods. Stretched chain can start shaving aluminium out of that guide and your engine will not be really happy with it.
What? These have saved motors when a tensenor fails or becomes fully extended when the chain is stretched. Yeah its gonna rub the guides, but thats the point, itll make noise, the chain will make noise and if you pay attention you should have enough time to kill the car before the pistons smash into your valves.

They are also super helpful if you want to change cams without pulling the motor.
 

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and who changes cams pulling motor out ? I can change them in 15 min when valve cover is off and all bolts removed.
Im not saying on our car, we have the room for it. Some swaped cars do not have any room to swap cams with out pulling the motor.

But even on our car it makes it alot easier to swap cams with this in.
 

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Im not saying on our car, we have the room for it. Some swaped cars do not have any room to swap cams with out pulling the motor.

But even on our car it makes it alot easier to swap cams with this in.
What K-swap requires engine removal for simple cam replacement???? You can remove the entire cylinder head without affecting lower chain positioning... I've done it :confused:

Top chain guide is a commonly used replacement OP. You'll have no issues with it. As for the bottom, unnecessary but still good to know about :thumbsup:
 

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Jon Daily Boulevard
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so i just wanted some opinions and maybe hear some experiences that others have had using a lower timing chain guide, like the hpt one. i recently had to replace my timing chain and tensioner due to chain stretch and causing it to jump some teeth, so i went ahead and changed the chain guides as well as installing the wider k20z upper chain guide and hpt lower chain guide to try and prevent the same thing from happening again. so has anybody else used these parts on their motors? any input will be appreciated, and i havent tried starting the motor yet... still waiting to install new water pump and idler, but i do have pics to share...
HPT lower chain guide/bracket
I have seen these chain guides too. I have considered installing one myself, but decided not to. My thought was, in the event the chain does jump teeth I was worried it might contact the lower chain guide and possibly send shavings of aluminum throughout. I wish it was the same materials as the OEM chain guides and not just aluminum alone. I'm still 50/50 about it because it has good arguments both ways, as the others have stated above.

Off topic of sorts, but how much wider than the K24 is the K20Z upper guide, is it direct swap? Also, how many miles did your car have when the chain stretched/jumped teeth?
 

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I think its worth it.. I have never heard any horror stories from these guides. Yay on my part.
 

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Jon Daily Boulevard
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The k20z3 chain guide is pretty beefy compared to the other engines. The HPT guides are pretty inexpensive to slap on there. It's worth the extra insurance.
I think its worth it.. I have never heard any horror stories from these guides. Yay on my part.
Good to know. Appreciate it.
 

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Ive never heard bout skipping on stock engines if chain and tensioner was changed due to service interval. Due to higher stress caused by bigger cams and higher CR id better shorten that interval to 30-50% than have possible alu shaves in my engine. Just few of em can ruin engine in a second. My buddy know this not from books but from his own exp.
 

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I have seen these chain guides too. I have considered installing one myself, but decided not to. My thought was, in the event the chain does jump teeth I was worried it might contact the lower chain guide and possibly send shavings of aluminum throughout. I wish it was the same materials as the OEM chain guides and not just aluminum alone. I'm still 50/50 about it because it has good arguments both ways, as the others have stated above.

Off topic of sorts, but how much wider than the K24 is the K20Z upper guide, is it direct swap? Also, how many miles did your car have when the chain stretched/jumped teeth?
What would you rather, your timing jumping and sending your valves through the head, or a few metal shavings that will most likely get picked up by your filter? Personally Id take the metal shavings, those shavings will come with some pretty nasty noises and hopefully youll kill the car before any real damage occurs.

What K-swap requires engine removal for simple cam replacement???? You can remove the entire cylinder head without affecting lower chain positioning... I've done it :confused:

Top chain guide is a commonly used replacement OP. You'll have no issues with it. As for the bottom, unnecessary but still good to know about :thumbsup:
I dont know for sure as I do not own those particular swaps. But I know there are a handful of chassis that are very tight in the bay and the only way to get to the chain is to pull the motor.
 

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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
I have seen these chain guides too. I have considered installing one myself, but decided not to. My thought was, in the event the chain does jump teeth I was worried it might contact the lower chain guide and possibly send shavings of aluminum throughout. I wish it was the same materials as the OEM chain guides and not just aluminum alone. I'm still 50/50 about it because it has good arguments both ways, as the others have stated above.

Off topic of sorts, but how much wider than the K24 is the K20Z upper guide, is it direct swap? Also, how many miles did your car have when the chain stretched/jumped teeth?
i think the k20z guide is 120mm across and the k24 one is 70mm, not completely sure but it goes all the way across the cam gears, as opposed to the k24 one, which only goes in between them and yeah pretty direct, just remove/replace. and my chain jumped at about 128xxx miles, thats why i went ahead and got the upper chain guide as well as the lower one while i was changing the chain and tensioner. with the addition of those two items when i tried to turn the crank with my old stretched chain and maxed out tensioner, they actually held the chain in place, but still with the extra slack from the chain it was looking like fudge. but thanks for all the input guys, and i do plan on upgrading cams in the near future, so knowing that this will aid in that, makes it worth it a just a bit more lol

i have pics for comparison:

 

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Jon Daily Boulevard
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i think the k20z guide is 120mm across and the k24 one is 70mm, not completely sure but it goes all the way across the cam gears, as opposed to the k24 one, which only goes in between them and yeah pretty direct, just remove/replace. and my chain jumped at about 128xxx miles, thats why i went ahead and got the upper chain guide as well as the lower one while i was changing the chain and tensioner. with the addition of those two items when i tried to turn the crank with my old stretched chain and maxed out tensioner, they actually held the chain in place, but still with the extra slack from the chain it was looking like fudge. but thanks for all the input guys, and i do plan on upgrading cams in the near future, so knowing that this will aid in that, makes it worth it a just a bit more lol

i have pics for comparison:
http://i843.photobucket.com/albums/zz357/gaw619/Automobile/IMAG0026.jpg[/IMG]
http://i843.photobucket.com/albums/zz357/gaw619/Automobile/IMAG0028.jpg[/IMG]
Cool man, thanks for the pics. I'll be slapping one of these on when I do my valve adj. I'll be changing my tensioner and installing one of those lower chain guides too, I suppose it couldn't hurt. My engine's got about 100k right now so it's due.

BTW, how did you know your chain stretched/jumped teeth? Besides checking the chain for slack or noise, was there a dramatic change in performance, bad idle, loss of power, cel? I know our engines can adjust for minor changes in timing, just wondering what tipped YOU off.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
well it started with the p0341 cel... and I looked it up online, and of course all sources mainly stated to check the chain for slack or jumped teeth, but I boycotted that by replacing literally all related sensors in a six month period. then one day the car didn't start and just cranked and cranked but wouldn't turn over, so then I HAD to check the chain lol but when I first got the code it was at about 115k miles and often times it would go away when the car got warmer, but I did notice a performance "slump" if you will, when the car had no cel, but ran fine with the cel on so that's why I figured it was a sensor at first. and you need to remove the timing cover to install the lower chain guide, and that was the part that I hated the most, all those damn bolts that hold it there and taking off the side mount, not to mention the crank pulley removal, so that's why I decided to do all those things at the same time and replace water pump/idler pulley/belt as well.
 

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well it started with the p0341 cel... and I looked it up online, and of course all sources mainly stated to check the chain for slack or jumped teeth, but I boycotted that by replacing literally all related sensors in a six month period. then one day the car didn't start and just cranked and cranked but wouldn't turn over, so then I HAD to check the chain lol but when I first got the code it was at about 115k miles and often times it would go away when the car got warmer, but I did notice a performance "slump" if you will, when the car had no cel, but ran fine with the cel on so that's why I figured it was a sensor at first. and you need to remove the timing cover to install the lower chain guide, and that was the part that I hated the most, all those damn bolts that hold it there and taking off the side mount, not to mention the crank pulley removal, so that's why I decided to do all those things at the same time and replace water pump/idler pulley/belt as well.
I know what you mean. I got one with 216000 (mostly hwy) and did the no start with po341. Im in the middle of the chain and guides replacement. Did you have any valve damage? I am also going to pull the oil pan and the oil pump and have it checked out. I hate to leave it when im that close. Let me tell you, the oil pan removal is another demon in itself. Remove front and rear mounts and raise engine with hoist so pan can clear the frame. Im going to check the top of the pistons with a snake like inspection camera picked up from harbor freight. Had thoughts of putting a skunk2 tensioner on but with the stock lasting that long i figure its a bit overkill. Fingers crossed for no valve damage!
 

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Discussion Starter #17
I didn't really check for valve damage besides removing spark plugs and shining a light into the chambers to look for any catastrophic damage before proceeding with changing chain and tensioner, but I did see one of those snake light camera things at wal mart and wanted to try that. I did think about getting an aftermarket tensioner but after some research and budget consulting, I think oem will suffice for my needs at the moment and as for the oil pan removal, yeah I can see how much of a bitch that would be to remove so that's why I didn't lol but I did purchase the 04-06 tsx factory service manual, and it was a huge help clearing things up for me when I got confused reading certain info on forum posts. but if you need anything from the book that you think might help, just let me know.

p.s. I think ill be heading to harbor freight and looking for that snake camera thing ;)
 

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TSX is PITA to work on. Everything is in a way of everything type a thing. Integras and Civics of old, were pure joy to mess with. This whole chain business is BS in my opinion. I have seen timing belts last longer than these chains.
If your TSX is getting to 100K and you will keep the car, it might be a good idea to budget for a new chain, tensioner, all the guides and if you are not doing the work on your own, $$$ for labor. I have contacts at Acura dealers and they replace these ALL THE TIME. Even on auto tranny cars.

Removing chain case is a MAJOR pita, aluminum 'grabs' all those little bolts and amount of force required to get them off is very close to actually snapping their heads off.
In my case 3 bolts going through the oil pain into chain case from under, had to be heated quite a bit before they decided to come out and as icing on the cake that chain guide pivot hex bolt, decided to strip, welcome to cutting with 1" room to work.

Anyway, I really like TSX, but when it comes to engine and tranny servicing this thing blows. (or I am just spoiled with older Hondas/Acuras)

I recommend HPT chain guide, especially if you will do cams at some point (even 06+ intake) or VTC 45deg gear. You'll be very happy you have that thing on the crank.

Regards,

Nino

p.s.

Just spoke with my contact on Honda side asking about Civic Si K20Z3, and it would appear that those like to skip timing as well, apparently they are steady customers on service side. Timing chain, good for business...
 
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