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Quest for the Ultimate/Affordable TSX Short Shifter

173K views 851 replies 167 participants last post by  TSX_scrub 
#1 · (Edited)
The quest for the ultimate/affordable TSX short shifter.

For many years now I have been waiting for a company to come out with a full short shifter solution for our cars, something that uses the OEM plastic base, and just changes out the shifter. It would be more economical for the manufacture, a higher quality for the buyer, and it would use the dependable plastic OEM base. The Mugen version is an inch shorter by the knob, and does not change the leverage points, and the price is ridiculous. The CT one could come loose, and I just don’t plain trust no set screws and glue, and again expensive for what you get. My background is mechanical engineering and I have the CAD/CNC tools to do most custom projects, so on I went with this one.

To start I took my shifter assembly out of the car and studied it for a bit. I found the design to be simple and impressive. The engineering that went on this piece was high quality, simple designed, and cheap to produce. I took a few key points off it and moved on. Next was the measuring of the part using high end Starett comparators. The bottom tip of the shifter was of most importance as the plastic ball that goes over it needs to roll smoothly. Another key measurement is the big center ball that the shifter uses as its central leverage point. With my measurements taken and rechecked I moved on to machining open the OEM shifter.

First I noticed that the back end of the central ball was pressed in. The spidering effects and the dimple gave it away. This is what Honda used to attach the ball to the shifter. Simple and effective!


To release some pressure off the dimple and to slide the ball off easier I center drilled the center of the dimple out. As this point would usually have the most clamping pressure.


Next I moved on to drilling the dimple out, and pressing the ball off the shaft.


What I discovered was again impressive. This hole time I thought the dimple is what kept things intact, but I was wrong. This is where research pays off as I realized that sideways motion could loosen up the pressing. Honda used straight cut knurls on the shifter and ball. When mated they allow each other to pass through each others channel to stop sideways motion.


Next was the designing stage. The curve in the shifter that Honda puts in our shifters is for ergonomics reasons that I can’t explain. The curve makes the shift knob be about .200” away from the driver. If anything you would want the knob to be closer to you, especially when shifting into 5th and 6th. Think about the EG/DC shifters and how they curved back towards the drivers hand for closer shifting. This design might be an inherited design from the JDM cousin that they were too lazy to change. Worried about how it would stick out I ran to the car with an assembled straight bar and the OEM ball. I could not tell at all. Put the center consol back on, and the shifter looked straight and right in the center. Mugen users can verify this as well.

My design is a 3 piece 303SS assembly that will be either tig welded or laser welded together. Here shown before assembly

Here shown after all welded together and ready to replace the OEM piece.


The next stage was important. Using GibbsCam, I used the CAD files I designed earlier to program the path of the CNC. With the help from a machinist/friend at work we got the thing ready to roll.


After the programming we prepped the CNC and loaded the first bar in the chuck.


After running the CNC the finished product looked like a beautiful part. Measuring confirmed that we were within .0001”. Amazing!

Here is a little clip I shot of the CNC running.

Overall 3 test pieces are made. The back end will be done shortly then I can move on to the ball and side lever.


More to come of the finished product! This was done to generate some interest in the TSX/Accord community in the mean time, and get some feedback to whether this is a wise choice to put this product in production.

Thanx for looking. Bardi.


As of 12/13/13 I have decided to put the scattered information on this thread on the first page. The web pages below are two very well written installs by two forum members. Please use these instructions to install the shifter:







http://www.tsxclub.com/forums/1st-g...cs-ultimate-affordable-tsx-short-shifter.html

http://c.winterrowd.homedns.org/tsx/short-shifter/index.html


12/23/13
Just a little clip and instructions on how to install the new hardware:
1-Lightly coat the body of the shoulder bolt with grease (It helps spin inside the hole better when you shift).
2-Make sure no grease ends up on the threads of the shoulder bolt. Clean threads with alcohol asap if this happens! Appling blue/red thread-lock on the threads is recommended if you have some, but not necessary.
3-Coat washer and mating pocket of plastic crank arm with grease.
4-Tighten as video shows.

 
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#35 ·
I am interested to see how this turns out.

I am still a little on the "why" side of things though, since after using the knob/cable-bushing/short shifter combo I have now works so well. Your solution doesn't seem to do much besides lower the knob which we already achieve with the countersunk Maven knob. And doesn't lowering the knob require a longer reach?

Is it really just because you don't trust the CT short shifter and the knob doesn't actually get lower? Wouldn't raising the knob give the leverage you are talking about? I am not thinking the shifter would be more than .5" to .75" taller...but at that amount I think the shifting would become pretty amazing and would reduce the need for a weighted knob.

I dunno...the FLP shifter is very well thought out. The principles behind it really could/should be replicated here. I see what you are working toward here, but I also see some lost opportunity.
 
#36 ·
Yeah I definitely dont want anything to do with the CT one. Just my personal preference. I also have the hybrid bushings and whats out there right now works ok, but why should people buy 2 different parts from 2 different vendors and be happy with them because there are no other options.

Yes lowering the height would require a longer elbow reach but a more stable feel. Yes raising the knob would give you a better leverage, but more travel. Right now I have an 03-07 Accord shifter in my car just to prove it to myself (pic tomorrow). Its longer then the TSX and I even dropped the lower section .150" for better feel. Personally I dont like it. Its too long for my taste, and plus remember that the longer the stick the more your elbow has to move when shifting away from you. Try it with a longer knob for yourself. Personally it ruins the feel for me.

The basis of this project was to make an affordable solution. The FLP piece is a nice shifter but the price is up there too. I can make anything really it all depends on how much interest people show.

As far as the height goes now I'm at a standpoint now. Mayuga just IM'ed saying he wants his 1/2" longer or so then OEM. This hole time I was aiming for 1/2" lower than OEM. Well Marcus you might be right, and I definitely cant make everyone happy with one shifter. My options are to offer the shifter in 3 different lengths, or move on to an adjustable version.

Overall people know their TSX and just how they want their shifter height to be, all they have to do is tell what height they want and they will get it. Even adjustable ones become useless once they are tightened to the desired position.
 
#39 ·
How about we let awok finish his project before we start some kind of list. He's doing this on his own time and money, he just happens to have access to the machinery needed.

The last thing I want to see is his design and enthusiasm for this project diminish due to trying to satisfy too many sources of varying input for the design or trying to satisfy a demand for the completed product.
 
#40 ·
I agree. I am doing this out of pocket and time, and Im not trying to get rich here. I have limited time to spend on this due to work load, and I dont want to spread myself thin with too many projects. They will come with time, dont worry. I want to take this one step at a time and not rush. I cant afford to stop the machines for side projects.
 
#42 ·
A few things I have learned over the years, especially dealing on here:

1- If you make something that you like, you will get buyers like you. But if you are rare of breed it turns into small or excessively time consuming and low profit business.

2- Opinions are like belly buttons. Everyone has one. Some are in, some are out. All matter at some point or another. Most or all are completely useless for anything other than collecting lint.

3- People buy based on value and referral. If you have a beat on customer's values, you can own markets. A taller shifter will perform better, guaranteed. If customers value a shorter shifter for it's feel (usually it is looks, though) then that is the way to go.
 
#48 ·
Lol, well, all chicks looks the same in the dark ;)

The Fastline Shifter is a game changer for most performance drivers. It does take a little bit of a leap of faith though. Understand, I am not thinking that the TSX needs or should have a shifter nearly as tall. But certinaly going shorter than stock is moving in the wrong direction. It, too, is a design based almost purely on looks and is not as functional as one would make it out to be.


I've tried to understand Marcus's posts & his website info on longer shifter handles, but I'm still not sure I understand it.

In the Mustang world, plus in every car that I've ever seen on a road race course always has a shorter shifter. The only time I've ever seen a longer shifter is in a "stock car" (Nascar type stock car that races on ovals) where they don't shift gears much & in a drifting type cars where they don't shift too much either, more concerned with the levers for the rear brakes.

It is personal preference so there is no right or absolute answer.

IMO, your intial design of the shifter lever is right on the money & I encourage you to carry on... :thumbsup:

Maybe we watch different sorts of racing....

WRC Focus:


Australia V8 Supercar:


Ken Block Gymkhana car:


I could keep going but the point is, it is always better and faster for shifting to get the knob as close to the wheel as possible. Now, these are all racing cars and I don't think the TSX should be anywhere near as long. That being said, getting the shifter higher will make the reach closer and allow you to keep your hands on the wheel more. It is for faster shifting and for more car control ability.


On the mustang I think the shifter gets shorter because the throw is too long for sure, and the best way to shorten it seems to be by reducing the height of the knob. While this is true for a Mustang, which has somewhat of a booty shifter to being with, it isn't a blanket truth. Shortening the knob has an added benefit with a compromise of father reach. More serious drivers will choose to take a compromise in looks over function, than that is what the Fastline part does.

Frankly, I don't know for sure that the TSX knob really needs to go up or down at all...I kinda like it with a short shifter, heavy knob, and cable bushings...



Oh, and because it is fun, I am posting a short review of our Fastline shifter in an Integra from 2006 where read the nice note about some guy named Marcus from Heeltoe ;)
Fastline Performance road race shifter: My Review - Honda-Tech
 
#46 ·
I've tried to understand Marcus's posts & his website info on longer shifter handles, but I'm still not sure I understand it.

In the Mustang world, plus in every car that I've ever seen on a road race course always has a shorter shifter. The only time I've ever seen a longer shifter is in a "stock car" (Nascar type stock car that races on ovals) where they don't shift gears much & in a drifting type cars where they don't shift too much either, more concerned with the levers for the rear brakes.

It is personal preference so there is no right or absolute answer.

IMO, your intial design of the shifter lever is right on the money & I encourage you to carry on... :thumbsup:
 
#49 ·
I see what you're saying but just to be pedantic, the lever in the center on Ken's car is the rear brake (e-brake). You can even see the hydraulic lines. Also, that picture of the WRC focus seems old because they are using paddles today with a giant lever in the center like Ken's car for the rear brake.
 
#51 ·
Well Marcus I totally disagree with you. Tall shifters are a waste of time!!! I can make a tall one just for you to enjoy, but man you are sure trying to sell the tall shifter idea. I know my car better than you do. I have driven it for 125K now and I definitely dont want my shifter any higher. Making me raise my elbow and causing me discomfort in long drives and cruising to work. The shifter height is fine stock but its can be 3/4" shorter for better feel. No one in here will want a 3 foot shifter in their car, it's just fact!!!!!!

I have owned/raced every B-series and H-series swap in the book along with all the different chassis. A shorter shifter if one of the first things I did. It makes the car feel better and the shifting better, it's just fact. I'm not going to make 3 foot clown shifters just cause Joe Shmow runs it in in his all out race car. Lets face it most people want a slightly shorter shifter, if you feel differently then the door is open for you to pursue the 3 foot shifter you always wanted.
 
#54 ·
Well Marcus I totally disagree with you. Tall shifters are a waste of time!!! I can make a tall one just for you to enjoy, but man you are sure trying to sell the tall shifter idea. I know my car better than you do. I have driven it for 125K now and I definitely dont want my shifter any higher. Making me raise my elbow and causing me discomfort in long drives and cruising to work. The shifter height is fine stock but its can be 3/4" shorter for better feel. No one in here will want a 3 foot shifter in their car, it's just fact!!!!!!
IMO, its whatever you're comfortable with. But, I recently put a taller shift knob on mine and found that raising it about an inch puts my arm parallel with the arm rest. I found this to be extremely comfortable. Just my $.02
 
#52 ·
I agree with AWOC. The first thing I did was installed the Mugen SS because I felt the factory shifter was too tall and put unnecessary pressure on my elbow up into my shoulder. The (slight) drop in knob height took all pressure off my elbow and put my right arm in more of a relaxed position that is MUCH more comfortable. This was my favorite modification of them all. I NEVER fell like I am reaching for the shifter and because it is shorter, I don't have to move my arm very much to switch gears. There was NO increase in shifting effort either.
 
#56 ·
I definitely understand where heeltoe is coming from. When it comes to motorsports or spirited driving, both of your hands SHOULD be on the wheel and should be off only during shifting which is where the higher shift knob would come into play for more quicker action. Many enthusiastic drivers chuckle at home videos of people driving with one hand on the shifter the whole time. I do understand it may not be necessary for the average consumer.

I'm not trying to side with one person over the other, I'm just saying there is a reason for the preference for both types of shifter lengths.
 
#62 ·
Yeah, you summed it up quite well. If I had a super tall shifter, my arm would be asleep all the time. I am CONSTANTLY shifting gears driving around Boston, where it can take you an hour to move a mile. If I took my hand off the shifter, I would over- or under-rev. My situation is not conducive to tall shifters at all. If I tracked the car, I can see where a tall shifter might come in handy.

It should be noted that race cars with super tall shifters are almost always equipped with sequential gearboxes, not h-shift. And as I'm watching WRC Jordan right now, I can say that A LOT of drivers grab their (sequential) shift lever much lower than the knob. Some of these guys are grabbing the lever halfway down. They are doing this because it is comfortable and that is naturally where their arm falls. I imagine that if they had H-shift gearboxes, they'd be throwing their shoulders all over the place due to the longer throws and side-to-side movement.
 
#57 ·
So we have a CT short shifter and a mugen short shifter, Im sure both shorten the shaft and the throw length but, what I would like to see is a slightly longer shaft (1 to 1.5 inches) with a relatively short throw, about 50-65% less travel.
 
#59 ·
Yes Marcus, this sure has turned into a like this shifter better than this one debate so you're wrong and Im right. I agree. no need for it.

Length is not an issue at all. I can make the shifter as tall or as short as people want, and it will not effect prices. Its just a matter of telling the CNC where to stop.

First prototype coming next week :). Pix to follow....

-Bardi
 
#60 ·
I have a fastline shifter in my civic



It is something where you have to actually try to understand and feel the benefits of.

I had a short shifter in it before the fastline one and for fast roadi can say teh fastline one was much better at the job! The shifting is not as short as a typical short shift but the time it takes fot my left hand to reach for the knob and shift gear and back to the wheel more than makes up for it!

The civic was my daily drive and i have done 6hr drive trips in it, and i can tell you it doesnt give you arm any discomfort.

Both types of shifters has there advantage. just depends on what your after.
 
#63 ·
Why is this thread turning into something other than contributing information and sharing experience/opinion to help the OP make the ultimate, affordable short shifter?

Mugen, Neuspeed and Comptech/CT-Engininering all make short shifters, and I'm sure it's for a reason. I don't know everyone's reason for wanting one or buying one, but I will share the reason for my interest: ergonomics. If you've ever used a computer keyboard that required you to pull back on your wrists to type, that's the kind of positioning I would look for a short shifter to eliminate. In my case, a short shifter that was somewhere between ½ and 3/4” lower would do this perfectly. This is due to a lot of factors in combination – my height, seating position, etc. It's certainly not one size fits all, but I'm also not sure that there will be a tremendous range here either.

As a customer, I already have some options. So far I've looked at the ones mentioned above. Price is the reason I did not buy the Mugen. Objection to the design stopped me from buying the other two. The end result was leaving as-is, until something is offered in the price range of what I'm willing to spend and that I accept the design of. So far, I like what I see - “constructive discontent” met someone with the skills to address the situation. Please let me know if I can test a shifter for you!
 
#64 ·
Why is this thread turning into something other than contributing information and sharing experience/opinion to help the OP make the ultimate, affordable short shifter?
Thank you! I feel the same way. You will be the first one to test it after me.

As I said before, I am straight going after building a great quality/value shifter that will improve on whats already there. I opened up this thread so members can contribute and help create a product that is a better option for our cars, and truly a product where we have the control and not what we are told to have. Let face it I will not get rich even by selling 200 shifters. I'm even thinking about options on modifying the OEM one to save people money. I do this cause I love to mod my car just like you do.

I had to be stern with Marcus cause he was coming off like a sales pitch. Next thing you know people jump on board about sequential race car shifters. I mean really now, take a look at yourself and your car.

Tall shifters serve their purposes as we all know they have a fallowing and I can understand that. One thing to remember that the EG,EK, and DC chassies have rod driven gear selectors and the shifters hangs lower off the bottom of the car for the shorter throw. Our cars are limited due to the shifter being enclosed inside and under the consul. Going taller requires less shifter throw which in turn requires the bottom of shifter to be longer. In our cars the OEM setup only allows for so much room, and the only option is to raise the plastic shifter assembly up, bit the consul only allows very little to do so. There are limits that we can go here with the throw. With limited throw and the higher you go with limited throw the more arm travel you will have. Trust me after a week of that you will hate your shifter.

So really we need to bring this tread back to life and starting off a fresh new page. Let me start by doing what I should have done in the first place, and ask you ALL the question:::::

What do you like and don't like about your shifter?

Me:::::
I have put over 120K miles on my car, and know exactly what I love and hate about the OEM design. Many in here can agree with the smoothness, crisp engagement, assuring click, almost effortless shifting Honda provided, but also the slow/dead feel as the shifter is about to engage. I am a very spirited kind of driver and I love to bang through gears. Although not my fastest Honda I have owned, but I still treat it like one. Personally I would like mine 3/4" shorter and about 50% less through, with of course the added weight on the shifter rod to make shifting smoother. I made 4 shifters originally as I was not sure if I wanted to go about 1" taller also. I love to place my elbow down on the arm rest and cruise with enough room to grab my girl and the shifter :) without too much movement. Torn between the two at first, but now I know that one thing makes me happier than the other overall, and that would be a shorter sportier version.

-Bardi
 
#65 ·
Likes:
  • Shifting is extremely smooth
  • Shifting takes very little little effort
  • Shifting action is controlled and predictable

Dislikes:

  • Throw could be reduced
  • Height could be slightly reduced (ergonomics)
  • Slight side to side play in the lever (could be wear in shifter bushings after 125k of driving?)

Suggestions:
  • Reduce height at least 1/2" but not more than 1"
  • Reduce throw, with care not to drastically increase shifting effort
 
#71 ·
MUAHAHAHAHA the saga continues :king:! And you thought this thread went away.

Been very busy with my personal life. Getting married this Friday and coming up with the extra money for these has been difficult. I have to sell almost all these to make my money back in time. Contact me if you are serious, I have stock ready to ship. As of now I have made the shifter in two options:
1)OEM height with 40 less throw
2)1" shorter with 40 less throw

The height of the threads is OEM. The height and thickness of the neck is OEM. What does this mean?? If you want to run a countersunk shift knob you can. If you want to buy an extender you can. I thought about making everyone happy here.

Highly precise machining, with all the pieces made out of USA stainless steel. Designed, machined, and assembled in the USA.

......and now eye candy.......




Just look at the machining on these. I have nothing to hide with closeups. I measured the balls with less than .0002" deviation. I am very happy with these!



Threads are hard to machine clean. Any machinist can agree. These things are plain clean.

I love me some extra weight!

Got side to side shifter play? This little guy is the major culprit. The oem piece is sloppy and wears out fast. A sneak peak of a new spherical bearing in the works. The new bearing will have tighter tolerances, more strength, better wear resistance, and a better friction coefficient.
 
#73 ·
Holy shit!! That is sexy as hell!!

How much are we looking at to rock one of these?
 
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