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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I was under the impression that I could just go and trade current 16 inch tires and rims for a larger 18 inch version without any hassles, well I was reading through my manual, well my Fiance was actually... it appears that changing the size of the rims will cause a major problem. I am not sure if the US TSX model has the option of Traction Controll or not, but apparently according to the user manual, changing the size of the rims/tires will throw the Euro's Traction Controll off and make it behave eratically! I had no idea that this was an issue as I just thaught that everything would adjust when the larger wheels were installed, well apparently not ! :(

Is there any way around this or am I doomed to keep 16 inch rims for the life of my Accord Euro? It isn't really a huge issue, I like the looks of the current rims and tires, but it would be nice to at least have the option of installing larger rims some time in the future?
 

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Boris the Bullet-Dodger
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I don't think it is that serious. There is a chance of 1% that the AVC will fail if you change the size of the rims. At least I haven't heard of this happening to anyone. 17" wheels are avaliable as an option by Honda dealers, so there shouldn't be a problem. If you install different size of wheels in the front and in the back than you might have problems due to sensors giving different readings.

Overal wheel size is what matters, no the rim. Get a smaller profile tyres when getting biger rims and nothing will happen for sure, even your speedo will give you the same readings.

Nick
 

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Gevor sounds pretty good to me.
Still, I would worry about it too, and I'd check it out extra, but......at least with the TSX, a fair number of people have gotten bigger rims and we haven't heard of any disasters.

Gevor said:
.....If you install different size of wheels in the front and in the back than you might have problems due to sensors giving different readings.
Would anybody ever do that?


Anyway......maybe the potential problem is just if people don't follow this:

Gevor said:
Overal wheel size is what matters, no the rim. Get a smaller profile tyres when getting biger rims.....
 

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The Voice of Reason
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Thorn2004 said:
I am not sure if the US TSX model has the option of Traction Controll or not, but apparently according to the user manual, changing the size of the rims/tires will throw the Euro's Traction Controll off and make it behave eratically! I had no idea that this was an issue as I just thaught that everything would adjust when the larger wheels were installed, well apparently not !
Anyone have a US owner's manual handy? I'm interested in what, exactly it says about this issue, if anything.

Doesn't Australia require cars to be sold with a full-size spare tire? (As a safety feature, to avoid your bones from being picked over by the wild dogs if you have a flat 12 hours outside of Alice Springs?) Does the US doughnut spare even have the same diameter as the other tires? I don't think a 17" will easily fit in the tire well. I'm wondering if what they mean is that you shouldn't drive 1,200 miles with a smaller diameter tire on one axle, which is something the US manual probably says about the doughnut spare.

I don't know what my owner's manual says, but my US market TSX has traction control and the standard 17" alloy rims. I also have a set of winter ("snow") tires mounted on 16" V6 Accord steel rims. Last winter I drove to Boston in the middle of a snowstorm and the traction control did not seem to get confused. Free advice is worth exactly what you pay for it, but I haven't had any problems with the 16" wheels in the winter, or switching back to the 17" wheels in the spring.
 

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Australia's model does not have traction control either, unless you're talking about VSA - Vehicle Stability Assist. No, upsizing your rims will not affect the way VSA works. There are plenty of people on this board that has gone upsized with no problems. But it is illegal to go more than 2 inches up in most major states in Australia.
 

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plus size the wheel correctly and you'll be fine. Like said above, if the overall dia. doesn't change there's no problem. Bigger wheels but smaller profiled tires and it will come out the same.
 

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Actually.....if I understand right, even when you get smaller profile tires, the overall diameter still increases a little. (Right?) I'm assuming this because (as we discussed elsewhere) the speedometer and odometer become a little inaccurate -- which must mean that the overall diameter has changed, presumably increased.

So I don't know if we can just "assume" that there's no possible problem.

I think the main thing that can give us confidence is the number of people who have done it and haven't had problems.
But, theoretically????? I don't think we know 100%, do we?
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
CL9 K24a said:
Australia's model does not have traction control either, unless you're talking about VSA - Vehicle Stability Assist. No, upsizing your rims will not affect the way VSA works. There are plenty of people on this board that has gone upsized with no problems. But it is illegal to go more than 2 inches up in most major states in Australia.
Sorry yeah I should have been more pacific, I was talking about the VSA which is basically the same thing as traction controll as far as I can tell, or is that ABS? !! Well I know ABS is meant to stop your wheels from locking, VSA is meant to ehance stability and stop you from skidding? Is this correct? I need to go through my manual instead of letting my Fiance sift through it ;)

At any rate the manual says changing the diameter of the wheel can possibly affect VSA, I don't think it affects the ABS in the same way because they use different senses? I just wanted to make sure that it is safe to upsize later on when I save up the funds, also the bodykit looks nice :)
 

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VSA is a system which interferes braking and motor power for each wheel seperately in order to stabilze car when it becomes unstable on the road...

We can name traction control in general, but all systems have different technology and characteristics...
 

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Yes, even though you said traction control, "VSA" was what I was thinking anyway. I never even noticed that you said it "wrong."

And actually.....don't know about the Euro, but the TSX has both -- the VSA, which is usually described as an "anti-skid" system, AND traction control. They are often talked about sort of together, and it is said that they "work together," but they're separate.

This is a bit ironic, because we were just talking about what the differences are between the cars, and some of y'all were saying (basically) there aren't any fundamental differences. Looks like this is another one.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
larchmont said:
Yes, even though you said traction control, "VSA" was what I was thinking anyway. I never even noticed that you said it "wrong."

And actually.....don't know about the Euro, but the TSX has both -- the VSA, which is usually described as an "anti-skid" system, AND traction control. They are often talked about sort of together, and it is said that they "work together," but they're separate.

This is a bit ironic, because we were just talking about what the differences are between the cars, and some of y'all were saying (basically) there aren't any fundamental differences. Looks like this is another one.
I think there is some confusion here, the Euro has the same features as the TSX in VSA, however we call our Traction Controll ABS, this is the same as the TSX model I just checked it up ;) So basically BOTH of our models have VSA (Vehicle Stability Assist) and ABS, I am sorry if I got confused earlier I now understand what exacty VSA and ABS mean :)

ABS basically stops the breaks from locking the wheels up by rotating break pressure to each disc I believe, VSA works independantly like you mentioned but also in conjunction with ABS, it offers stability in various slippery conditions!
 

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Thorn2004 said:
I think there is some confusion here, the Euro has the same features as the TSX in VSA, however we call our Traction Controll ABS, this is the same as the TSX model I just checked it up ;) So basically BOTH of our models have VSA (Vehicle Stability Assist) and ABS, I am sorry if I got confused earlier I now understand what exacty VSA and ABS mean :)......
This is giving us the chance to clarify something that I don't think has ever been clarified before on a TSX board. (Although of course I may have missed something.....)

When you posted that, I realized that I wasn't sure what's what about this. I always thought the traction control was separate from the ABS, i.e. something that the car has in addition to the ABS. (And of course separate from the VSA.) But I realized that I didn't know.

So I started googling. And it wasn't easy to find out. The first few links weren't clear about it. Some of them seemed to imply that all 3 of these things are separate, but tnot cleary. Then I found this:

http://www.hondanews.com/CatID3039?mid=2003030641055&mime=asc

.....which includes the following:

"In addition, the TSX has P215/50R17 Michelin MXM4 V-rated tires, 4-wheel disc brakes, and an impressive arsenal of electronic driver aids including Vehicle Stability Assist (VSA), a Traction Control System (TCS) and an Anti-lock Braking System (ABS)."

So, there is the answer: Unless you think this description on hondanews.com is mistaken, the TSX has all 3 things, and they're separate. If that's not the case on the Euro Accord, this is another difference between the cars.
 

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Boris the Bullet-Dodger
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Ok, here's what I found on VSA on the website here: http://www.aerospaceengineeringmagazine.sae.org/automag/toptech/1298t07.htm

I beleive it works the same on TSX

Vehicle stability assists (VSA)

Upper leading and lower trailing links form Watt's linkage that causes the rear wheel to travel at an optimal rearward angle.
The fundamental principle of various production vehicle stability systems, such as Bosch's VDC (Vehicle Dynamics Control), Cadillac/Delphi's StabiliTrak, Toyota's VSC (Vehicle Stability Control), and now Honda's VSA (Vehicle Stability Assist), can be explained by Shibahata's method. All these systems add side-slip control to ABS/traction control systems. They handle sudden changes in vehicle behavior, enabling the driver to control the situation. Honda's system is based on the concept of stabilization through control of the front wheels (in a front-wheel-drive car) without reducing the pleasure of driving.

The VSA uses the ABS/TCS architecture to which a unique electronic control unit and an algorithm are added. Input sources include wheel-speed sensors, yaw-rate sensor, lateral acceleration sensor, steering angle sensor, engine speed sensor, and brake switch. The ECU has main- and sub-CPUs. The system applies an appropriate individual brake, and modulates the engine's torque output as required by the situation.

In an oversteer situation, the system calculates the driver's intended "target" from lateral acceleration, steering angle, and vehicle speed. If the vehicle's actual yaw rate exceeds the target, the VSA brakes the outside front wheel to reduce yaw, thereby regaining stability.

In an understeer situation the system intervenes by reducing engine torque output, and if necessary, by braking the inside front wheel. This creates an inward moment, putting the car on the driver's intended line.

The VSA assists the vehicle in starting on a slippery and split-coefficient surface by applying the brake on the front wheel on more slippery side, and directing engine torque to the other wheel, which has more grip.

Braking while cornering is a difficult task, disturbing the vehicle's stability. The VSA switches ABS from the normal three-channel, select-low mode (straight-line and cornering at moderate speed) to the four-channel mode, controlling the rear brakes independently. Taking advantage of weight transfer during cornering, the system applies the brake on the outer rear wheel, improving braking performance.


Nick
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Gevor said:
Ok, here's what I found on VSA on the website here: http://www.aerospaceengineeringmagazine.sae.org/automag/toptech/1298t07.htm

I beleive it works the same on TSX

Vehicle stability assists (VSA)

Upper leading and lower trailing links form Watt's linkage that causes the rear wheel to travel at an optimal rearward angle.
The fundamental principle of various production vehicle stability systems, such as Bosch's VDC (Vehicle Dynamics Control), Cadillac/Delphi's StabiliTrak, Toyota's VSC (Vehicle Stability Control), and now Honda's VSA (Vehicle Stability Assist), can be explained by Shibahata's method. All these systems add side-slip control to ABS/traction control systems. They handle sudden changes in vehicle behavior, enabling the driver to control the situation. Honda's system is based on the concept of stabilization through control of the front wheels (in a front-wheel-drive car) without reducing the pleasure of driving.

The VSA uses the ABS/TCS architecture to which a unique electronic control unit and an algorithm are added. Input sources include wheel-speed sensors, yaw-rate sensor, lateral acceleration sensor, steering angle sensor, engine speed sensor, and brake switch. The ECU has main- and sub-CPUs. The system applies an appropriate individual brake, and modulates the engine's torque output as required by the situation.

In an oversteer situation, the system calculates the driver's intended "target" from lateral acceleration, steering angle, and vehicle speed. If the vehicle's actual yaw rate exceeds the target, the VSA brakes the outside front wheel to reduce yaw, thereby regaining stability.

In an understeer situation the system intervenes by reducing engine torque output, and if necessary, by braking the inside front wheel. This creates an inward moment, putting the car on the driver's intended line.

The VSA assists the vehicle in starting on a slippery and split-coefficient surface by applying the brake on the front wheel on more slippery side, and directing engine torque to the other wheel, which has more grip.

Braking while cornering is a difficult task, disturbing the vehicle's stability. The VSA switches ABS from the normal three-channel, select-low mode (straight-line and cornering at moderate speed) to the four-channel mode, controlling the rear brakes independently. Taking advantage of weight transfer during cornering, the system applies the brake on the outer rear wheel, improving braking performance.


Nick
Thankyou for that information, now I understand totallly what VSA means and does, who would have known what it involved? :surprised
 

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I wouldn't say you would not have any problems if you're upsizing rims but the likelihood of problems in percentile would be fairly minimal to nil. If you keep to usual conservative sizes, I doubt you'd have any problems.

I personally keep VSA off everytime when I hop into the car since Honda has this function on by default, the time when it gets disengaged is when you manually hit the button and the exclamation icon lights up to tell you that the system is off. Why do I have it off? Because it interferes with my driving and would more likely cause me an accident more than anything else.

VSA is very sensitive, when it detects a lost of traction due to uneven road surfaces, wet weather or any form of tyre slip, it activates and reduces or prohibits acceleration. This can get dangerous especially when you want the power on tap. Try it the next time you try to overtake someone and you fall into some pothole and you'll know what I mean.
 

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CL9 K24a said:
I wouldn't say you would not have any problems if you're upsizing rims but the likelihood of problems in percentile would be fairly minimal to nil. If you keep to usual conservative sizes, I doubt you'd have any problems.

I personally keep VSA off everytime when I hop into the car since Honda has this function on by default, the time when it gets disengaged is when you manually hit the button and the exclamation icon lights up to tell you that the system is off. Why do I have it off? Because it interferes with my driving and would more likely cause me an accident more than anything else.

VSA is very sensitive, when it detects a lost of traction due to uneven road surfaces, wet weather or any form of tyre slip, it activates and reduces or prohibits acceleration. This can get dangerous especially when you want the power on tap. Try it the next time you try to overtake someone and you fall into some pothole and you'll know what I mean.
I disagree with what you are saying re VSA being potentially dangerous. If you push the car too hard on a wet winding road - with the potential the car will run off a cliff -would you want the VSA on or off? The VSA will most likely outperform your ability in that situation no matter how good you can drive. Can you brake individual wheels like VSA can?

The VSA (as opposed to the traction control) is not that sensitive. You need to be in true over/understeer before it kicks in.

Thorn - I have the same car as you in Melbourne with 17" Prodrive 225/45 rims. My VSA works perfectly fine so don't worry about changing rims - keep to the same rolling diameter and you will be fine.
 

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This is a great discussion.

I think the first part of CL9's post above.....:

I wouldn't say you would not have any problems if you're upsizing rims but the likelihood of problems in percentile would be fairly minimal to nil. If you keep to usual conservative sizes, I doubt you'd have any problems.

......is probably right. Otherwise we'd have heard of disasters from the people who've upsized their rims.

The debate about whether VSA is good or bad sounds like a valid debate. I think what YF1 said is probably more true for most people, but I can imagine that what CL9 is saying might well be true for him and some other people. But if indeed that's so, I think it would rely on a lot of things, including not just driving ability and desire for as much of a "driving experience" as possible, but also almost total alertness and concentration at all times. I think that's a tall order. I have enough doubt about that myself that I wouldn't drive without the VSA, except just as an occasional experiment. Also I guess I don't need my driving experience to be that ultimate.

But in support of CL9's side, how's this for an analogy: Ever have it happen that you do something that looks dangerous to someone else, so they shriek out to you? And the person's shrieking can actually MAKE it dangerous, when it wasn't in the first place, because it crimps your style? Like, if I'm with some people and I run across the street for something, somebody (usually my wife of course) :D will yell out that I should be careful. Or, if I'm driving, sometimes a passenger might think a certain maneuver is dangerous, so he yells that I should watch out..... same thing. In both instances, it creates a possible danger when there wasn't any to begin with, because it's distracting and it might take me out of my game. In defense of them, though, I guess I was scaring the s*** out of them.
P.S. It's really safe what I do, it really is. Unless you suddenly stop seeing posts by Larchmont. :D


P.S. Welcome, yf1 -- hope we'll be seeing you some more!
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
CL9 K24a said:
I wouldn't say you would not have any problems if you're upsizing rims but the likelihood of problems in percentile would be fairly minimal to nil. If you keep to usual conservative sizes, I doubt you'd have any problems.

I personally keep VSA off everytime when I hop into the car since Honda has this function on by default, the time when it gets disengaged is when you manually hit the button and the exclamation icon lights up to tell you that the system is off. Why do I have it off? Because it interferes with my driving and would more likely cause me an accident more than anything else.

VSA is very sensitive, when it detects a lost of traction due to uneven road surfaces, wet weather or any form of tyre slip, it activates and reduces or prohibits acceleration. This can get dangerous especially when you want the power on tap. Try it the next time you try to overtake someone and you fall into some pothole and you'll know what I mean.

I had no idea that VSA was even on by default? I was under the impression that when you hit the VSA button and the icon lit it was actually on? You are saying that when the icon is lit it is really off? Wow I guess that means I have been driving with it on all of the time, and you know what? I didn't even notice ! I am not sure if this is because it hasn't interupted the driving experience or I haven't had to really use it yet? Come to think of it, there was one time when the roads were wet, I must have had VSA on because like I said I had assumed it was off when it wasn't. I accelerated quickly from the lights so I could overtake a car in the lane next to me, the car suddenly shuddered and I could feel the car changing its stability, I instantly regained grip and accelerated smoothly! Was this VSA or the ABS kicking in? Having never had a car with ABS or VSA I am unsure, but something definately kicked in to help with the traction?
 

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yf1 said:
I disagree with what you are saying re VSA being potentially dangerous. If you push the car too hard on a wet winding road - with the potential the car will run off a cliff -would you want the VSA on or off? The VSA will most likely outperform your ability in that situation no matter how good you can drive. Can you brake individual wheels like VSA can?

The VSA (as opposed to the traction control) is not that sensitive. You need to be in true over/understeer before it kicks in.
Some interesting thought there you've raised based on a very broad spectrum of intepretion. I thought I'll add the "generalization" in your statements, firstly I don't think many if any will be "pushing" the car in a wet road let alone a wet winding one. If they do, it'll take more than VSA to bring about any change in an adverse situation.

The factory spring rates are setup by default to give this car a very neutral or even in fact a bias oversteer setup to reduce FF understeer, that would be a bigger concern in my books when driving in such conditions described.

And I wouldn't assume on an individual's driving style or skill for comparative sake.


Welcome to the board.
 
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