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The Voice of Reason
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Discussion Starter #1
No Acuras on the cover this year (last year it was the TL) BUT...

...in "Top Picks, the best models in 10 categories" has the TL best "Upscale Sedan", the Pilot best "Three-Row SUV", the Odyssey best in "Minivan" and the Accord best "Family Sedan". There are also 3 Toyota-Lexus models, 2 Subarus and 1 (one) (I.) non-Japanese car, the Ford Focus, in the top 10. That's an amazing 4/10 best for Honda.

...they have 9 Honda-Acura models listed in "Best Vehicles for $25,000 or less".

...under "Quick Picks", for "Vehicles with high ratings in all areas" they have 7 Honda-Acura models, including the TSX and 3 Accord models.

...under "If reliability is important", 4 Honda models. (But 12 Toyota-Lexus models!)

...under "If overall safety is important", 3 Honda-Acura models including the TL, TSX and Accord.

..under "If owner satisfaction is important", 5 Honda-Acura models including the TL, TSX and Accord.

Interesting, the Accord, TL and TSX do very well in "Owner Satisfaction", better than the BMW 3-and 5 Series and MUCH better than the MB C, E and S Class, and Audis. It might just mean that Honda buyers are somewhat saner than Eurocar buyers (hard to believe!) or it might mean that time spent waiting by the side of the road for a flatbed tow sours the experience of all that great-smelling leather and real wood!

All-in-all Honda did quite well.

I'm not selling my stock in Honda Motors, Ltd.

The issue is $4.99 on your newsstand and certainly worth the investment!
 

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Go Honda!! :woot:
 

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Overworked Microsoft Peon
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The problem is a lot of people still see BMW and MB cars as status symbols - thus, something as minor as reliability doesn't really factor in.

Honda and Toyota are now competing in the commodity automobile level. The only thing they have, really, to distinguish against the other brands trying to get into that area is features, reliability and price.

IMO, Honda's losing a little on the features side of things, simply because Toyota is saturating the market with a gazillion different models of cars and SUVs in every market segment.

Also, their prices are still a bit high compared to a lot of the other brands - it's almost like they're the "luxury" level in the commodity market. A high-end Civic is what, $19,000 OTD probably? That's a lot of money for a compact, and the lowest in the lineup - it almost overlaps with the Accord LX in price. In the Toyota lineup, I don't even know what that equates to.

Not that I'm not saying that it's worth the money, but I think Honda needs to either re-think their offerings a little bit, or re-set their prices.

Not going to touch the Acura line, since they compete in different market.
 

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The Voice of Reason
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Discussion Starter #4
Revenent said:
The problem is a lot of people still see BMW and MB cars as status symbols - thus, something as minor as reliability doesn't really factor in.
Hmmmmm. Does that account for the lack of owner satisfaction for the Euro marques? Or is the lack of satisfaction because the Mercedes buyers think that their purchase is going to make more of a difference in their lives than it possibly can? Will they wake up the next morning and see they're still balding, overweight and with no friends? (The next morning, we Honda owners may still be balding, overweight and with no friends, too, but at least we still have money in the bank! It's just a car after all!)

(As researched in an old thread, Honda Accord buyers have a higher household income than BMW 3-Series buyers. Something I thought striking.)

"Out the door" varies according to exactly where your door is. With "CarsDirect' in my zip code, I calculate $17,457 for a Civic EX 4-door with all the possible option boxes checked. (The Si is $17,968 and the Hybrid $18,897, but really, the EX 4-door AT has almost everything that almost anyone really needs in a car!)

I was considering buying a 7-year old S70 Volvo with 83k for my daughter until I noticed that a new Accord DX with ABS, 6 airbags and a warranty was only a few thousand more than the old Volvo ($14,713 for the Accord). IMO the Volvo was just not a sane choice in comparison. So I don't think Hondas are particularly price-uncompetitive.

Nor are they usually found on the "Specials" table at Filene's Basement, either!
 

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Overworked Microsoft Peon
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bob shiftright said:
Does that account for the lack of owner satisfaction for the Euro marques?
Possibly - maybe they didn't get the rise in status that they thought the car could give them? Who knows. What a person thought before buying the car and after buying the car are two different things.

bob shiftright said:
(As researched in an old thread, Honda Accord buyers have a higher household income than BMW 3-Series buyers. Something I thought striking.)
Yup. But then again, the 3-series is more for "young" people, who don't know any better when it comes to their finances. (Ducks and runs for the nearest shelter.) :laugh:

bob shiftright said:
"Out the door" varies according to exactly where your door is.
Definitely - that's my mistake. But you also have to realize that the corresponding Accord will now be lower in price as well. Also factor in insurance, licensing fees, etc, etc.

bob shiftright said:
IMO the Volvo was just not a sane choice in comparison. So I don't think Hondas are particularly price-uncompetitive.
I was comparing them more to their market segment (whatever the heck that means nowadays), so more against Toyota than anything.
 

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bob shiftright said:
....."Out the door" varies according to exactly where your door is.....
:jump:

Also, as we've noted a few times, in usual discourse people do and don't include different things in stating "OTD" prices.


Thanks for the scoop, Bob S!!!!

So.....here are the categories where the TSX stood out:

-- "high ratings in all areas"

-- reliability

-- overall safety

-- owner satisfaction

Not bad, eh? :nod:
 

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The Voice of Reason
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Discussion Starter #7
Revenent said:
I was comparing them more to their market segment (whatever the heck that means nowadays), so more against Toyota than anything.
My main annoyance with Toyota has always been their neo-Fascist approach to the consumer. THEY know what you want better than you do! Or so they think! Before my Volvo, I tried to order a Camry V6 5-speed with power windows and ABS. This was for a car built in Georgetown Kentucky, not somewhere exotic like, say, Ghent, Belgium. Area Toyota dealers all swore that such a car was impossible. Then, the next month, Car and Driver actually tested one. EXACTLY that car! So I bought my Volvo instead. VOLVO had absolutely no trouble building EXACTLY what I wanted in GHENT, BELGIUM and delivering it in 8 weeks!

Honda tends to put various assortments of gizmos on various trim levels. Toyota tends to randomly apply extras to cars as they move along the assembly line. Option-for-option, and I get a CarsDirect price of $24,466 for a Camry V6 SE once the (optional)(leather) Premium Package, (optional) side airbag-VSC, and (optional) birdseye maple dash are added, if you can find one so configured. Versus $24,298 for an Accord EX-L V6.

Seems about the same....
 

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Overworked Microsoft Peon
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bob shiftright said:
Honda tends to put various assortments of gizmos on various trim levels. Toyota tends to randomly apply extras to cars as they move along the assembly line. Option-for-option, and I get a CarsDirect price of $24,466 for a Camry V6 SE once the (optional)(leather) Premium Package, (optional) side airbag-VSC, and (optional) birdseye maple dash are added, if you can find one so configured. Versus $24,298 for an Accord EX-L V6.
I was looking less at the top of the line stuff, and more at the mid-range and low-end stuff.

Not everybody buys the top of the line. :)
 

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The Voice of Reason
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Discussion Starter #9
Revenent said:
I was looking less at the top of the line stuff, and more at the mid-range and low-end stuff.

Not everybody buys the top of the line. :)
The basest base Camry is $16,817 but includes AC. Side airbags are a $559 option. That is, if you can find one so equipped.

To get the price down on the $14,713 Accord DX they throw out an awful lot of stuff, like the steering wheel stereo controls, the AC, cruise control, power mirrors, power locks and it has rear drums and mohair seats. (But overall it's configured almost exactly like my first SAAB was 22 years ago! Except it comes wth a decent stereo, as well as ABS and 6 airbags. My SAAB just came with an empty, flocked plastic box in the middle of the dashboard! The AC was a dealer-installed option, just like on the DX.) Add back in all the whistles and bells, as with the EX, add an AT and you're still shy of $21k. (I was impressed enough by the Accord EX 4-cylinder that I suffered an episode of disorientation and I momentarily consided buying one for myself when it immediately occurred to me that I already have one, except with a 6-speed, a stiff suspension and those fine eelskin :) leather-pleather seats!)
 

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Man, I did not think that having a car for less than 20k was possible from toyota or honda.. Now the only question i have is can you get a rl or mdx with a 6sp manual....
 

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TSX of the Month Winner
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All i have to say is most American cars has gone ugly and eat so much gas.
 

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bob shiftright said:
My main annoyance with Toyota has always been their neo-Fascist approach to the consumer. THEY know what you want better than you do! Or so they think! Before my Volvo, I tried to order a Camry V6 5-speed with power windows and ABS......
:nod: Hey, Bob! You just gave me a recovered memory. :nod:

I had TOTALLY FORGOTTEN about this, but that's exactly how I originally got to Acura.

Way back when, in '88, I needed a new car FAST, and I was seriously considering a Camry. I wanted ABS. At that time, in order to get it, you had to get a certain "package," a VERY LARGE package, none of which I was interested in except the ABS.

With that package, the Camry was only about $2K less than what I could get a Legend L for. I got the Legend.
The very next day.
 
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