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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
The Scion tC, I'm afraid, is going to kick major butt.





Scion is the cool new line being made by Toyota. The xA and xB are already out in California. Haven't heard anything first-hand, but I understand they're hot.
They're boxy little cars, look sorta like little crossover SUV's or whatever. They're REAL small -- length 154-155", which is about the same length as the Toyota Echo was before they made it bigger. In fact, some sources say they're based on the Echo.

The Scion tC is coming out around June, and from what I can tell, it's a totally different car from the other Scions. Basically it's a "sporty coupe." And everything you see about it seems to suggest it's going to be great.

Various sources say that it's based on the Toyota Caldina or the Toyota Avensis, neither of which I know from a hole in the ground. I see that the Caldina is Japanese and the Avensis is European, but that doesn't help much. Anyway the Scion is going to be about 174" long, which is 4" smaller than the Corolla and 2" bigger than the RSX.

It looks to me like the tC is going to compete with the RSX market (among other cars of course) -- and maybe even the Accord coupe.
And maybe even also TSX (see below).

Here's some stuff about it from the Car & Driver site:

(Link: http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?intAsvPageCurrent=13&section_id=31&article_id=7671 )

Scion tC

Scion says the new tC hatchback was designed specifically for the U.S. market, unlike the brand’s current offerings—the xA and xB mini-wagons—which are re-badged Japanese-market Toyotas. When the tC goes on sale in June, it’ll coincide with Scion’s national rollout, which will include the x models, both of which have been on sale only in California. Based on the European Toyota Avensis sedan platform, the tC features the 160-hp, 2.4-liter DOHC inline four of the Toyota Camry mated to either a standard five-speed manual or optional four-speed automatic. Standard equipment is extensive and includes power windows and locks, A/C, a Pioneer CD player, four-wheel disc brakes with ABS, 17-inch alloy wheels, and a panorama glass moonroof—all at a base price under $17,000. Scion also plans to offer a supercharger on the tC, which will bump horsepower to 200.



Notice the 2.4-liter 4-cyl, and the available 200 hp. (Where have we seen that before......) :D


BTW don't get too excited about the "17K" figure.
It's being said the car is only going to be available "loaded," which will bring it up to 19K or a little more. Still looks like a lot of car for the money, though.


So.......Whaddya all think?

I think we're going to have a major new player.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
DSM said:
The Avensis is a very nice car from what I have read about it. Here is a link to a review from a British website:

http://www.tiscali.co.uk/motoring/roadtests/roadtest_779_1.html
Nice link!

The main thing I noticed was the endless list of comparables. Did you catch that? The list is a mile long! I don't imagine that the Avensis is really that similar to all those other cars, it's just that these people are most definitely "lumpers" rather than "splitters."

By the way, the Avensis doesn't seem to look much like the tC. Also, it seems to be much larger. (I didn't find specs, but they indicate it's just a little smaller than the Passat.)
 

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Here is a write-up about the Scion tC from the following link:


http://www.cardesignnews.com/autoshows/2004/detroit/highlights/index4.html


2005 Scion tC

In June, the Gen Y-oriented Scion marque from Toyota will be rolled out throughout the US. And alongside the xA hatch and the xB, er, box, there will be the tC coupe. The completely remarkable aspect of this vehicle is that it is going to be available for "well under $20,000." Which needs to be taken into account when considering the fact that it is equipped with a panoramic glass moonroof, interior details such as dampers on moving parts and a bona fide cast aluminum temperature gauge knob, and a low-gloss IP plastic that is meant to resemble the texture of Japanese paper. These guys are working it.

Based on the European Avensis platform, the vehicle sits low and long with a wheelbase of 106.3 inches, height of 55.7 inches, and width of 69.1 inches. The sheet metal is clean, without superfluous cladding. The wheel arches are well-defined around the 17-inch graphite-appearance alloy wheels, providing a sense of confidence. The front fascia has a split grille, with the upper portion carrying the Scion badge.

Under the long hood is a 2.4-liter 160hp engine, and anticipating that the market might want more, there is a dealer-installed supercharger package that boosts power to the 200-hp vicinity.

The rear seats are 60/40 folding, and fold flat to take loads such as an 8.5-foot surfboard. If you're rolling with folks in the rear, there is the ability to recline the rear seats by 45-degrees.
 

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The new Scions are going to rock. The supercharger with 200HP for a car that size is gonna have some juice when you step on the gas.

I do agree at $17K for the non-supercharger, it's a little overpriced. It's going to be interesting to see how they compete with Mazda3.

On a related note, local Toyota dealers are advertising the Scion xA, and xB at un-negotiable, fixed prices (like Saturn dealerships). I can only imagine that they are going at the full MSRP. I like the xA but the xB is one hideous monster (especially the front bumper). It's almost like the offspring of a Honda Element and a Mitsubishi Montero.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Whatchamacallit said:
.....I do agree at $17K for the non-supercharger, it's a little overpriced. It's going to be interesting to see how they compete with Mazda3.....
I'm not sure I see the Mazda3 as one of the main comps to the tC. Hard to say, of course, until we see the tC -- but why do you say the Mazda3?


Anyway.....I haven't heard much about how the Mazda3 is doing, but I expect it will do very well. The AAA Guide actually likes it better than the Mazda6, which everybody seems to agree is a very impressive car. They give the Mazda3 a higher score than the Mazda6. (The scores are on the same scale for all cars, regardless of their category -- i.e. the Mazda3's higher score doesn't involve the car being cut any slack for being less expensive or anything like that, except that one of the scales is for "Value" -- but both cars got the same score on that. The higher score for the Mazda3 means they think the car is better, period.) BTW the Mazda3 gets a higher score than the TSX too, and the same score as the BMW 3-series. As I mentioned, ratings are almost always a little screwy, and this Mazda3 rating in particular sure seems fishy -- but regardless, it's quite a statement about the car.
 

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I saw the xA and xB when I was shopping for my car. They had both as demos at the Toyota dealership I visited. I asked the salesman to give me the scoop on these cars. He said the cars are basically aimed at younger buyers, are ready for various aftermarket mods, have great stereos, decent power, and reasonable prices. Plus they're being backed by Toyota which certainly aids the perception of them being a quality car.

He hinted that Toyota will be selling many aftermarket-type accessories. The ones on the lot had upgraded tail lights, sporty sticker type-stuff on the body, and mods to the interior. I guessed these were mods you could buy from the dealership, which struck me as a particularly good idea on their part to expand their cash flow by getting some of that business.

Didn't care for the look of either car, but I guess if I was 18 - 23, it may look cool. Heck, looks are ususally not the primary concern when you are that age -- it's usually price. I saw a Scion xA on the road, just this morning, and I thought it looked okay. Looks a little like the new Aveo thing from Chevy.

When I see them I automatically think of the old McDonald's commercial (I think it was McDonald's) where this big business guy goes to rent a car, and the girl at the counter says in a very chipper voice, "Here you go sir. It's a two door Speck!!". :D

However, the tC looks very interesting. I wouldn't mind driving one, from what I've seen in pix/mags etc. I also think the new Pontiac roadster that's supposed to be coming out next year looks interesting. And that's saying something for a GM model to catch my attention!

Yes, I think people looking at the Mazda3 would check out any of the Scion line. Small, somewhat sporty cars, with lots of extras, aimed at younger people who are likely buying their first brand new car. Seems obvious to me that they would be direct competitors.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Ferg said:
.....He hinted that Toyota will be selling many aftermarket-type accessories.....I guessed these were mods you could buy from the dealership, which struck me as a particularly good idea on their part to expand their cash flow by getting some of that business.
Yes indeed. Also if the dealers sold mods, more people would get into them.
I've never been into mods, partly (I think) because they've never been put right under my nose. If the dealerships had them, I very well might have.
Maybe they figure it would make the dealership setting more complicated and therefore off-putting to a lot of shoppers. Or maybe the possible profits aren't worth the time and space.
Didn't care for the look of either car, but I guess if I was 18 - 23, it may look cool. Heck, looks are ususally not the primary concern when you are that age -- it's usually price.
I think it's both equally. My impression is that people in that group (no offense, maybe it's people in ALL groups) go mainly by a car's looks, once they've narrowed the field by price.
Yes, I think people looking at the Mazda3 would check out any of the Scion line. Small, somewhat sporty cars, with lots of extras, aimed at younger people who are likely buying their first brand new car. Seems obvious to me that they would be direct competitors.
Well, in view of the people who are saying so on this thread, I guess that's probably right. But I see the tC as being slightly but significantly different, including that the price will be at a higher point. Remember, although we're seeing that "17K" figure, it appears that the effective price will be more like 19K or more.
 

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The Mazda3 I drove was right around $19K. It had the bigger engine, leather, etc. I believe the Mazda3 starts around $17K, doesn't it? I seem to recall that, but I could be way off. Don't feel like looking it up right now. Again, I'm just too darn lazy. :D
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Well, I don't know either, but I do know that invoice on the Mazda3 actually starts at $13,300.

Of course that might not include a steering wheel...... :D


My take is that effectively the price difference between the cars will be about 3K.
 

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larchmont said:
Well, I don't know either, but I do know that invoice on the Mazda3 actually starts at $13,300.

Of course that might not include a steering wheel...... :D


My take is that effectively the price difference between the cars will be about 3K.
Mazda3i sedan (base) has invoice price of $13,451 and MSRP of $14,200. But as expected, this does not include power windows, locks, mirrors, cruise contol, side impact air bags, and ABS which cost $2000 to add as a package. (They seem to group most popular/essential options in pricey packages that Toyota is famous for doing).

Mazda3s sedan has invoice price of $15,955 and MSRP of $16,925. It includes power windows/locks/mirrors etc but still does not include ABS and Side Impact Airbags ($800)

Mazda3s hatchback has invoice price of $16,413 and MSRP of $17,415 and is similarly equipped as the Mazda3s sedan.

Keep in mind that they are selling well and still going at very close to the MSRP. Also, adding popular sporty options like xenons, alloy wheels, leather, moonroof, and the navigation system will exceed MSRP of $23,000. :eek:

I like the Mazda3s a lot but I wouldn't spend over $17,500 for it. (Of course, I said the same thing about spending anything over $26,000 for the TSX :D )
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Whatchamacallit said:
.....Keep in mind that they are selling well and still going at very close to the MSRP. Also, adding popular sporty options like xenons, alloy wheels, leather, moonroof, and the navigation system will exceed MSRP of $23,000. :eek:....
Thanks for all the data. Yes, it depends to an extreme extent on what you want to include. And I'm not surprised to hear that it's selling for close to MSRP. I mean heck, from what I've read and seen, I myself am very curious and would love to try the car, and I feel like I wouldn't mind having one.

But, back to our arithmetic. I just tossed out the figure of "3K" as my estimate of what I called the "effective" difference in price between the Mazda3 and the Scion tC.


:D Let's take just a moment to give me a thoroughly undeserved pat on the back for correct typography:
No space between "Mazda" and "3," and lower-case "t" and upper-case "C" for the tC. :D



It's a bit of a tough comparison because there's so much range in possible prices on the Mazda, and the tC is just guesswork at this point, plus who knows if you really can do "apples to apples" comparisons because the cars might not have equivalent options. But, if Nav will be available on the tC (couldn't find any indication but I imagine it probably will), my guess would be that a loaded tC (including the 200 hp as well as Nav) would indeed be about 2-3K more than that Mazda.
Yes, I know that would put it well into the mid 20's.
 

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Mid 20K? I'm not so sure Toyota/Scion would dare to go that high even with all that goodies. But then again, Toyota can really inflate their prices with their combos so maybe you are right. We'll just have to wait and see.

But there's no doubt that this is Toyota's big foray into the young and upcoming crowd that Honda has enticed with the Civic and the Integra for years. The entire Scion lineup has been created to draw the younger crowd without cheapening the Toyota brand name. Should they suceed, it's safe to say Toyota is going to be #1 car maker in the world a lot sooner than expected.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Depending on your criteria, it already is the #1 car maker in the world.

One criterion of course is number of vehicles sold.
I don't have any idea about those figures, but I imagine Toyota trails GM and Ford, if not others also???

But in terms of financial value of the company, I'm pretty sure Toyota is #1, far and away.


P.S. How I got the "mid-20's" figure (for the loaded tC): Take the 19K that they're saying will be the effective base figure, add whatever for the extra 40 HP and whatever more for the Nav, plus some more for a few extra little other things, and what do you get?
 

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larchmont said:

P.S. How I got the "mid-20's" figure (for the loaded tC): Take the 19K that they're saying will be the effective base figure, add whatever for the extra 40 HP and whatever more for the Nav, plus some more for a few extra little other things, and what do you get?
You get a car that would directly compete with their other "sporty" coupe, the Solara -- I'll let you decide how sporty it really is. Regardless, you can get a very nicely equipped Solara with a V6, leather, etc for around $25K.
 

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Ferg said:
You get a car that would directly compete with their other "sporty" coupe, the Solara -- I'll let you decide how sporty it really is. Regardless, you can get a very nicely equipped Solara with a V6, leather, etc for around $25K.
Of course, Toyota already does ok with the Celica GT-S in that price bracket, since it appeals to a different demographic than the Solara. If anything, a loaded tC and Celica will have lots of buyer overlap.
 

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kiteboy said:
Of course, Toyota already does ok with the Celica GT-S in that price bracket, since it appeals to a different demographic than the Solara. If anything, a loaded tC and Celica will have lots of buyer overlap.
Motor Trend reports Toyota will stop selling the Celica in the US sometime next year.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
dnb said:
Motor Trend reports Toyota will stop selling the Celica in the US sometime next year.
In the immortal words of Ralph Kramden:

AHA!!!!!



Nevertheless, I'm backing off on my price estimate for the "loaded" tC.

Forget "mid-20's." I'm saying 24K.
 

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$23,500 max (MSRP) and that's my final offer.


Celica is a nice car but I have to wonder why it failed to capture the fan base of younger drivers like the Civic and the Integra did. Maybe the fact that it didn't have a Honda/Acura badge on it. :rolleyes:
 
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