[Lamest Duck]

You always hear that Hondas/Acuras are great cars... at least if not great, one of the better cars and bang for your $.

So I owned my first Honda in late 1999, and it was a 2000 Accord Coupe V6. The car was great in every aspect. Until it came to 2003 and I decided to change and "MOVE UP" to the Acuras.

I chose the TSX. Now, less then 6 months since acquiring the TSX; I wish I had bought a Ford Temp (JK)... well at least, I wish I had kept my Accord instead.

This car has been terrible with: general luck as it has become a target for people dinging it in parking lots, the emblems were stolen/broken off in the first 4-6 weeks, and a paint job that blows monkey's ass - what kind of paint job chips with snow flakes? WTF.

All been said, I at least figured that the car will run reliably.

Until today, the straw that broke the camel's back came along. I am driving on the highway at about 110km/hr when i notice the air bag light come on. I am like, wtf. A few seconds later, my radio dies... I am like, WTF. A few seconds later, the ABS light comes on, and I am like WHAT DA ****!

So feeling that I was losing power - which I did in a few seconds later - without brakes or any power to even signal (thank god the steering still worked) I managed to float off the 4th lane on the highway to the ramp off it and the up hill of the ramp finally took the 'floating' away and I came to a full hault.

Now, you would think that having this happen to you is just an experience and you would then go to the dealership and have everything sorted out.

At the dealership, the service manager says it is most likely the computer board or the alternator failing (I am like wtf is he talking about, the car never stalled). Then I ask the guy if he could fix the rust spots that has formed on a less than 6 month old car - and he is like: you just need the touch up paint - I am like, okay fine; give me a loaner so that I can go to work. Then he is like: we do not give loaners but you can rent 1 from our 'rental car business' for discounted rate of 25/day. Then I just had it. The dealership GM gets involved and they have the same story. Fighting a losing battle at that instant, I decide to take the rental and fight the battle another day.

Your ideas and thoughts are welcome.

 

[larchmont]

That sucks. In fact, it's worse than sucks. I agree that it's the kind of thing you should never expect to have with an Acura. Not just what happened with the car, but what happened at the dealer. But especially what happened with the car.

This is a rare experience (except for the paint-chipping thing, which is widespread.) But rare or not, it's horrible. If it had happened to me, I'd also be pretty sour on the brand. In the past I had a BMW, which was constant trouble. The TSX is my 3rd Acura. One of the main things that has kept me an Acura guy is that things like this seem not to happen. Since the TSX is a new model (well, basically new), especially in the first few months I was watching like a hawk for any stories about malfunctions like yours, because you never know until there's some body of experience -- and I've been glad to see that the cars seem to be extremely reliable.

But that doesn't help you. This is awful. I hope the story will go better the rest of the way. Hope you'll keep us posted.

 

[Lamest Duck]

Follow up

The service manager calls and he says: "After you left, we started working on your car. Strange thing is that we cannot find anything wrong with it."

I ask what caused it to do what it did, he replies: "we do not know"

I asked that is a safety issue, what am I suppose to do, he replies: "I can have our mechanic 'take' it home over night. He lives on the west side of Mississauga (about 50km away). The we will see if the problem occurs again."

I say, what if it doesn't but instead next time it happens to me in traffic areas? He replies: "well, that is a risk just as it is with any other car"

I say, that is a safety issue. It is like driving a non-certified car. He replies: "oh, I guess I should call Honda's engineers"

I say: You have not done that? he replies: "no"

WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[aesop]

Yeah the paint thing happens to ALL cars these days. My rsx-s dings super easy, and teh paint is paper thin.. hrm.. thinner actually

What dealer is this cause that's messed up. The dealer I take it to offers loaners to me if its going to take a while (sherway). And If they don't have it, then I just book an appointment for when they have it available. I would assume that is standard practice with any high end dealer.

 

[dabuda]

whadafuck that sucks! sounds like you got the most problems...you should call up Acura HQ or customer relations and complain. everything should be covered under warranty including the rust...

 

[hondafreak4eva]

whadafuck that sucks! sounds like you got the most problems...you should call up Acura HQ or customer relations and complain. everything should be covered under warranty including the rust...

yeah im with his plan of attack!

 

[kiteboy]

Can you name the dealer so the rest of us can stay the hell away from them?

 

[johnej]

I agree eveything should be covered under the warrenty....

 

[hondafreak4eva]

Can you name the dealer so the rest of us can stay the hell away from them?

or even general area? like a city?

Thanks!

 

[Lamest Duck]

Tuesday Update

Okay...

I went to the dealer this morning, I found my car all washed up and buffed... the rust spots are even more visible now.

I go to the service managers office. He explains that they still found nothing wrong with the car and he asks me what I want to do. I ask what my options are, he says he does not know. So I say, Exchange my TSX to a TL straight up. He looks at me as if I have lost my mind and says that is not an option. I told him he asked me what I wanted.

Anways, he tries to 'justify' that they have done everything and although he does not think it is safe for me to take the car, there is not much he can do.

So I let it all loose and somewhat freak out on him. I went over the crappy service they have provided me and then I get into the issue with the rust, rental car, ... during this argument, he bluntly tells me that the 'loaner' cars are given to people with 'major' service. Then I asked if my problem was not a 'major' problem. His reply was that since mine was a 'warranty' related issue and not a profit generating work, there is no 'loaner'.

That caused me to freak out, and I insisted that I want to get out of my agreement and have the car returned to the dealership. At that moment, he picks up the phone and calls Honda Finance.

This apparently did not do much for the dealership as the Honda Finance lady says (we are on a speaker phone): the dealership is responsible for the customer satisfaction and the costs associated with that comes from the 'profit' the dealership made on the sale of the car. Any other 'special' arrangements between Honda Finance and the dealership has nothing to do with the 'client'.

That leads into having the dealership GM getting into touch with Honda Finance so that they can 'work' something out for me to get out of the car and into another car. I am meeting with a Honda Finance rep and the dealership GM at 4:30PM today to discuss options.

I will keep you updated.

p.s. I do not think it is fair at the present time for the name of the dealership to be revealed. However, I can tell you this much, it is located within GTA.

 

[larchmont]

You're handling it well. I can't think of anything you could be doing better. Good work. Let's see how it comes out.

Seems like the most logical outcome would be for them to offer you a new TSX, which I'd encourage you to accept. I think we can say with a good degree of confidence that it would very likely be more than a satisfactory car for you, unless you're too soured mentally on it because of what happened and what's been happening.

All just IMHO of course.....

Please keep us posted.

 

[netoperek]

I doubt you'll get a new car, in fact, since they found nothing wrong with the car they will let you have it untill it breaks again, i worked for 3 years for a service provider (dealer) for a major computer company, talking about horror stories.

 

[hondafreak4eva]

Re: Tuesday Update

p.s. I do not think it is fair at the present time for the name of the dealership to be revealed. However, I can tell you this much, it is located within GTA.

GTA= greater toronto area?

im thinking it might be beneficial for others form that area that are working with them to know of these things, no?

anyway i respect your wishes to keep it on the dl...

good luck!

 

[kiteboy]

Re: Tuesday Update

p.s. I do not think it is fair at the present time for the name of the dealership to be revealed. However, I can tell you this much, it is located within GTA.

The thing with free enterprise is that you get to vote with your wallet and indirectly via the wallets of those you tell. Getting their name slagged on the internet where thousands or more enthusiasts are viewing does wonders for customer service.

Take the example of the dealer that reneged on the Evo they sold Ebay. It spread like wildfire and the negative publicity hurt them way more than the cost savings on that car. You can also bet they won't pull that stunt again.

The fact remains that you have received extremely shoddy service and still needed to "freak out" on them before they would do anything.

I respect the fact that you are in negotiations with them and don't want to jeopardize the outcome. Once this is over, I would still be interested in finding out which dealer it was.

 

[johnej]

I would like to know also. I have heard about crappy dealerships with my previous car....I would like to know the final outcome...

 

[Lamest Duck]

Wednesday Update

I met with the GM of the dealership yesterday. The rep from Acura/Honda was not there.

The GM starts to play the good cop role and trying to 'make me feel better' by offering me a drink. The service manager said they spent more time with Honda engineers to try to find the problem and they had not found anything. In his words, they had unplugged and replugged every 'suspected' wire to make sure there were no loose connections and that they had pour water over the engine and other components to see if there is any moisture issue with the car. He also says that the mechanic will take the car over night again to see if it happens again. So far the car has been driven close to 1000 km.

The GM then tries to 'offers' me a deal were I can exchange my car with another TSX but I would have to pay 3000-4000 dollars. Then I say how about I pay 0 dollars, he gives me a new car - and that being a TL. He did not look surprised with what I said and he says 'I want you to be happy and I want you to get a car from me'. Then he gets into how much my car has lost value and that they would lose too much money if they even offered a TSX straight up in a exchange. Then I counter argued that, they would actually try to sell my TSX knowing that this happened? Then I followed that with asking him about 'ethics' and how much impact would there be to his dealership and Honda/Acura if I want around ranting about it with names and addresses attach to it. He turned silent. Then he says I will see what I can do.

This morning (Wednesday), the service manager calls and says that they still have not found anything and I should come to get the car realizing that the GM is working on a 'deal'.

Then I call the Customer Relations at Honda to see what they are saying. First I ask the rep what he has on my file. He says that the engine had stalled - this is not what happen - so I ask howcome he does not have the 'right' information? he responds that is what he has. Then I say 'I was there when the service manager told the whole story over the phone to you and since the so called engineers at Honda have been working on it, you should definitely have the whole story'. Then he stumbles and says that their 'engineers' who I found out are just 'more experienced mechanics' than actual 'engineers' have determined that there is nothing wrong with the car. Then I ask the rep on the phone if he is so sure, would he be interested in buying my TSX at below bargain price under the condition that he would travel with his family in the car. After a 3 seconds delay, he reponds: "I have a car".

Then he gives me the run around, no matter what I say, he would give another excuse and ultimately saying that he does not give a shit (not using the actual word) and I should deal with the dealership on the issue. I asked to speak to someone with decision making power and he says that all the agents on the phone have that power. I ask to speak to the department manager, and guess what... the manager is on vacation. I ask for the director or a VP of the division, guess what... he is attending external meetings. But I did manage to get the name of the customer relations manager for Canada.

I am going there before noon today, we'll see what happens.

p.s.
GTA = Greater Toronto Area

 

[larchmont]

Great work again. Sorry to hear it's so hard, and that they're not even getting all the info straight. (Which is almost typical of situations like this, isn't it?) "Your engine stalled" is kinda funny, although you can see how someone might have reduced the situation to that.

Keep going with it. Except IMHO you're not helping yourself by keeping on asking for a new TL. That doesn't seem reasonable or even understandable (although I know when you're pissed, nothing seems like it would be enough), and I think you might actually undermine your prospects if you keep asking for it. A new TSX (even-up) is the most the anyone would think it's reasonable to ask for, and I think you might get that, but I don't think you help yourself by asking for more.

 

[hip]

Great work again. Sorry to hear it's so hard, and that they're not even getting all the info straight. (Which is almost typical of situations like this, isn't it?) "Your engine stalled" is kinda funny, although you can see how someone might have reduced the situation to that.

Keep going with it. Except IMHO you're not helping yourself by keeping on asking for a new TL. That doesn't seem reasonable or even understandable (although I know when you're pissed, nothing seems like it would be enough), and I think you might actually undermine your prospects if you keep asking for it. A new TSX (even-up) is the most the anyone would think it's reasonable to ask for, and I think you might get that, but I don't think you help yourself by asking for more.

Larchmont is right. No manufacturer will offer you a more expensive car to replace your current one. That said, you're on the right track. Continue being persistant and don't give up.

I've known several people and have helped a few get replacement cars, but it will take time, even under the best of circumstances.

If you already haven't, you need to do something right now, document everything. Try to calm yourself (maybe a beer will help) and sit down at the computer (or with a pad and pen) and try to recall everything that occured from the first time you experienced the problem. Dates are imporatant, try to look at a calendar or dayplanner and see if you have any appointments or similar written with names to help jog your memory. You need to create a chronological history of what happened and when.

Once you collect all this information, review it at least once in a printed format. Somehow, it always looks different than on a computer screen and helps you see mistakes or helps remind you of missing info.

After all that is done, look it over for reoccurance of the same or similar issues. The rust is definitely covered and barring any accident the car may have been involved in, should be covered for a long time. The mechanical issues are another matter. If the dealer says he cannot get the car to repeat the problem, ask him if he has run a diagnositic check? The cpu is supposed to store any error codes from any malfunction that occurs. If it happened, it's in there and needs to be retrieved to validate the problem.

No one I know has ever received a replacement without having to give up some money. They will always adjust for mileage. But if you have on file that the defect occured at specific mileage and now the dealer keeps trying to fix it and it takes another 5,000 miles to validate and it still is not repaired, the manufacturer cannot deduct for the 5,000 miles. Of course, you might argue that your time is worth something too and as such you should receive some compensation for the loss of it (as well as the aggrevation). Don't be afraid to toss around the fact that you plane to contact Dick Colliver (Pres of Acura NA) you could probably guess at his email or better to write him with a letter that is registered mail, return receipt requested.

Stay focused and calm, it's ok to fly off the handle once in a while as this helps to the extent that the squeeky wheel gets the grease. But try not to go ballistic and carry on a like a raving lunatic or they will throw more roadblocks in your way. Just as an FYI, the last person I knew with a lemon Honda Odyssey received a new one but a took almost a year and a half. Be patient and keep documenting everything anyone tells you!

Here is a U.S State lemon law summary:

State Lemon Laws have some differences like coverage of motorcycles and used vehicles, but there are some basic guidelines that they do share.

1) The laws define what a lemon car is and require that the manufacturer, not the dealer, takes care of the defects. If a number of attempts have been made to repair a defect that significantly impairs the use, value or safety of a car and the car continues to have this defect, the car is than considered to be a "lemon".

2) Most statutes set up a warranty rights period of either 12 to 24 months or 12,000 to 24,000 miles. The defect(s) must occur sometime during this period.

3) Many of the state laws contain specific guidelines as to what constitutes a sufficient number of attempts to repair, and whether these attempts entitle the consumer to a refund or replacement. These are:

a. If the defect is a serious safety defect involving brakes and or steering, the manufacturer is granted one attempt to repair.

b. If there is a safety defect that is not considered a serious safety defect,the manufacturer has two attempts to repair.

c. For any other defect, the manufacturer is usually given three or four chances to repair the same defect.

d. If at any time the vehicle is in the shop for a cumulative total of 30 days in a one year period, with at least one of those days occurring the first 12,000 miles.

If any one of these of these guidelines can be satisfied, the consumer is usually given the right to require repurchase or replacement of his/her vehicle.

4) Most lemon laws do allow an offset for use of the vehicle by the consumer. Oftentimes, a reduction in the consumer's purchase price return is used in relation to the number of miles he/she had put on the car. One law spells out the reduction in refund for use as follows:

(miles at time of refund X purchase price)/100,000
The consumer can often argue that he/she should not be charged for miles that were put on the vehicle after the first try to fix the defect. For example, what if the consumer allows a dealer many attempts to repair a defect over a period of several thousand miles? Should the manufacturer be allowed to reduce his refund for the period of time he was not unsuccessful in fixing the defect? Our answer is no. The above formula should be used to compute the mileage at the time of the repair attempt. This can often make a difference of several hundred dollars to the consumer.

5) Only about one half of the lemon laws allow the consumer to recover attorney's fees in his/her action. Those states that do allow attorney's fees provide for a greater likelihood of success and representation in warranty disputes.

You can find more info here:
http://www.autopedia.com/Lemon/

It's hard not to be pissed, but there is no such thing a perfect anything. Every company can and does occassionally screw up and make a bad product. Also remember this statisitic, a happy customer will usually tell 3-5 people of their good experience, an unhappy one will go out of their way to tell 9-12 people. Feel free to let Acura and the dealer know that fact and tell them you are on an Acura Forum and plan to let everyone know exactly how you have been treated and how this situation ends up being resolved.

Good luck and hang in there, you will get satisifaction.

 

[larchmont]

Great post, HIP. (And not just because you said I'm right.)

.....Once you collect all this information, review it at least once in a printed format. Somehow, it always looks different than on a computer screen and helps you see mistakes or helps remind you of missing info.....

You know, that's true, and I always thought it was just me. I always have to print-out in order to really make sure something's OK, and often I have to print it out a couple of extra times before I have it all cleaned up. I always felt self-conscious about not being able to do it all right on the screen. Nice to know I've got company.

.....you might argue that your time is worth something too and as such you should receive some compensation for the loss of it (as well as the aggrevation).....

Sounds good, but I think it's the longest of long shots. You can say that for effect, but I don't think anyone should expect it'll get anywhere.

.....the last person I knew with a lemon Honda Odyssey received a new one but a took almost a year and a half.....

Ugggggghhhhhhh! Somehow I don't think our guy is gonna settle for that. And I wouldn't either.

 

[Lamest Duck]

Late Wednesday Status

By the minute, I keep on getting more and more disappointed with Honda/Acura brand all together.

After about 6 hours of playing phone tags with the GM/Service Manager/Honda Customer Relations (or as I would like to refer to them from now on, Piss Off the Customer Department) here is what I have been offered:

- 3 days of the rental fee coverage
- the service call at the 48k KM worth $400

To break out of my agreement, I pay $6k (give or take) + taxes in condition of getting another Honda/Acura - otherwise, approx $7k (to get out of it completely) + tax.

After making it clear that this is not an acceptable offer and it is an insult; the customer relations supervisor is escalating the issue to her manager.

On parallel, called up the insurance company to see where things would be with them, and according to them, if I take back the posession of the car and an accident happen for any reason including the problem that happened, I would be 100% at fault and liable.

Great day..... urgh .............. I need a beer.

p.s. thanks for all the pointers, I have been keeping a log of things spoken, time/date, and and names. This kind of things are pretty much standard.

I have a feeling this is far from being over :|